Iran's New Fighter

Wait, this is a knock-off copy of the nefarious MiG-28 of "Top Gun" fame... they gave "Maverick" and "Iceman" a helluva run for their money. I think they even splashed "Hollywood" and "Wolfman". LOL

All jokes aside, I like the new tail configuration. It will make for attractive silhouettes painted under the canopy rails of our fighter planes when the time comes. Or will they simply paint miniature Iranian flags?

Yes, with this "new" fighter combined with their stealth boat/plane thing (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,190462,00.html), I'm sure there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth at the Pentagon.

Joel, I think that you're thinking of T-38s, a trainer aircraft that preps pilots for a fighter track.

This new Iranian bird appears to be an old F-5 chassis with F-18 fins.

There's a company out West that was trying to make a civilian bird that looks just freakin' like this. It was at Oskosh a couple years ago.

god Iran sucks.

Check out Spook86's assessment:

RBT

*****

Today's Howler

Iran has "unveiled" its first "locally manufactured" fighter aircraft, nicknamed the "Saegheh." Reading this AP account, you'd think Tehran had achieved some sort of technological breakthrough. Here's a sample:

The report said the bomber Saegheh is similar to the American F-18 fighter plane, but "more powerful." It also said the plane was "designed, optimized and improved by Iranian experts."

State TV said the Iranian air force had commissioned the Saegheh plane after many test flights in the past year.

Television footage showed the airplane taking off and launching two rockets. The plane had a small cockpit and only one pilot.

"Saegheh is capable of launching both rockets and bombs," the report said.
General Karim Ghavami, commander of Iran's air force, told state-run television that the war games were being held "to show the trans-regional forces that we are ready to defend our country up to the latest drop of our blood."

Here's the real scoop on the Saegheh. It's nothing more than a re-manufactured U.S. F-5 (which has been in Iran's inventory for more than 30 years), with a second vertical stabilizer and a slightly modified nose. The aircraft may also have a more capable air intercept radar, although nothing on the scale of early-model F-15s or F-16s, let alone the F-18 or F-22. The Saegheh's payload is minimal, so are its self-defense capabilities, and it can loiter in a target area for only a few minutes. In a nutshell, the Saegheh is hardly evolutionary, let alone revolutionary.

Yet, the MSM laps up every PR release from Iran like a kitten drinking warm milk. And that leads me to a larger point, concerning Iran's recent displays of military force--events that have received extensive play in the western press. Some of these displays are little more than public relations stunts; I received a tip the other day (that I'm still trying to verify) that a recent broadcast of an Iranian missile test was (in fact) footage of a Chinese launch from a few months ago. True, Iran is trying to upgrade its military capabilities, but much of Tehran's military remains poorly equipped and marginally trained. Their recent embrace of "asymmetric warfare" is, in part, an admission that their conventional forces are hopelessly broken and no match for a superior military foe.

I don't know what "Saegheh" means in Farsi, but a better nickname for the aircraft might be the local word for "target."

[...]
In From the Cold

They should at least paint them all black, so they look like the bad guys in Top Gun. Maybe that way, they will be able to tap into our Hollywood driven pysche and possibly demoralize a few of our Naval Aviators to the point of turning in their flight wings (it happened in the movie!). Then again, Saddam's area defense based Blackhawk Down (human wave attacks supported by technical vehicles) wasn't all that successful.

What really gets me is the way the media spins this stuff. A few weeks ago, Iran claimed to test a sub-surface launched missile. Spooky! They also mentioned that it was "long range" with an air range of a whopping 1 mile. I'm sorry, but any decent naval analyst should be able to point out that 1760 yards is basically "knife fight" range in modern naval terms. Even a crappy Mk46 Torpedo compares favorably to that. Of course Joe citizen doesn't realize this thanks to the lack of scrutiny by our media. Later - Nerf

... but this goes to "11."

shitty iranian jets are boring.

decent iranian jets make for a good narrative.

also: consider the extra-military value of the jet.

okay folks.....a little reminder, thats all: "shock and awe" was SUPPOSED to render enemy ground actions ineffectual. That was three years and almost 3,000 U.S fatalities ago....

the arrogance of high technology will kill you, if you forget or ignore this simple fact: a suicidal enemy can and will use low tech weapons to dangerous effect.

So...this is a joke Iranian fighter? perhaps, but it's COST per unit might mean a hundred in the sky vs one of ours...and each of those doesn't have to be super-duper, as long as the missile it carries and launches is.........

remember, a simple rock can kill you just as well as a gold plated- next- generation- GPS- guided- scramjet-laser- (insert ACRONYM here)

Well, if war breaks out with Iran, the fighter jocks should be happy then.

There should be enough of these POS's for everyone to become an ace on their first mission.

Maybe they'll have to redefine the number of kills to become an ace (5) upwards in light of this travesty of aerospace engineering.

Campbell,
You obviously know nothing about TACAIR with the comments you made. The old argument about cheap jets mean you can make hundreds just doesn’t wash in today’s air environment. With a small jet like the new remanufactured Iranian F-5 you still have a small nose and because of this virtually non existent air search radar. A modern jet like the F-18 E/F, F-15C with AESA the F-22 and AWACS (Both E-3 and Hawkeye) give our pilots the ability to see and shoot first. This advantage allows us to dictate the air battle regardless of the number of enemy aircraft. AMRAMM will deal with the longer ranges and as helmet cued sites and the AIM9X come into service you don’t even want to get near any of these jets in a knife fight. This coupled with the superb training and tactics used by our crews assure us the best air assets in world bar none. The newest of the bunch the F-22 is down right revolutionary. Take some time to read some of the articles on the F-22 as it goes head to head with the F-15. As an old retired F-15 maintainer it saddens me when I read the Eagle driver’s comments of “ we go out and die then hit the tanker and go out and die again, never having seen the Raptor”. This is just technology moving forward I’m sure it was the same when the F-15 started to replace the F-4.
When the time comes and it is coming, both our Air Force and Naval aviators will sweep the sky’s and establish complete air domination of Iranian airspace within the first hours of any engagement.

Having done my time in aviation, I could not help adding my 2 cents. This abortion is nothing more than cannon fodder for any US F18 or F22. Any Iranian pilot would know it is a ticket for a one way mission.
Point the nose at your target, throttle-up, and yell "Banzai"!

I saw it and laughed, although the point was made about it being so cheap there could be hundreds of them in the sky (though I doubt that in Iran's case). I would have been more concerned had I seen it fitted with the Russian RD-33 turbofan engine and N-019 or Phazotron Zhuk radar set. As for Billmil's comment about the AMRAAM, due to the closing speeds in a head on engagement, you may only get off one or two Slammers before the fight has closed well within visual range, at which your Slammers become very expensive compared to cannon rounds. As far as the off-boresight helmet cued AIM-9X is concerned, the Iranians are experienced with this as well in the form of thier MiG-29 Fulcrums which have and were among the first to use this type of system in conjunction with the ultra agile R-73 (AA-11) Archer missile. Who knows, perhaps the Saegheh incorporates the HMTS/R-73 combo from the Fulcrums and itself be deadliest in a knife fight.

I concur with the aviators on this board about the air campaign in any war with Iran. It would last about twelve hours (the exact length would merely depend on the amount of fighters the Iranians sent up at a time before they are destroyed on the ground). The naval war will probably be even shorter. However, a ground war will be something vastly different.

Counter-insurgency warfare is our weakness. If we're SMART, we'll simply avoid it by flattening Iran and letting them live in the eighth centruy like they seem to want. With any luck, another round of the bubonic plague or the Avian Flu will wrap things up nicely and you won't hear from or see Iran for a couple hundred years.

I know this is heresy here and I'm waiting for the incoming on this, but we have had a mediocre counterinsurgency campaign in Iraq, at best. While the troops have been busting their asses going 200%, the leadership here still fumble with assymetric warfare. The organization is learning, but our adaptation is VERY slow (while I cannot speak for the Marines, as I simply have not served in their AOR, they could be working miracles and it would still be irrelevant, as the Army has the Baghdad area and THAT'S the key to this thing). Iraq now is simply in the hands of the American people and their willpower to ride this storm out. It's simply a battle of wills at this point and one that I'm not fully confident that the American people can win.

Iran would devolve into exactly what we are in now with Iraq, possibly even worse. I'm all for an air and naval war with them... strongly oppose a ground war save for small incursions to insure we have fully destroyed their nuclear capability. We simply do NOT have the capability to sustain something on the level of what we're barely sustaining here in Iraq.

And John, I'm pretty sure that the ficticious MiG-28's in "Top Gun" were F-5's from the Navy Aggressor squadrons from Miramar, not T-28's.

The plane's crap.

But just the other day a news item revealed that the Iranians have perfected a 2000lbs LGB.

so the Saegheh might get close enough to land a few well aimed LGB-kicks at the US ground forces nearby.

That would be some victory of sorts.

There's a reason the US hasn't gone in to Iran - because they know there is no chance in hell of them gaining air superiority within 12 hours. That's a laughable idea over a country the size of Iran which also has a sizeable air defence network and F-14s equipped with Phoenix.

Joel, I'll let you correct me, but only because you're an upstanding VMI man, heh.

I was sure those damn things were 38s.

. This advantage allows us to dictate the air battle regardless of the number of enemy aircraft.

Not true. You only have so-many hardpoints....

- Kevin

Not being an aviator, but merely an aviation buff (so the REAL aviators, please correct me if I'm wrong), but I SERIOUSLY doubt the capability of this aircraft carrying a 2000lb bomb. I'm almost certain an F-5 cannot. It would probably snap the wings off or collapse the landing gear.

Robin, I stand by my claim that we can achieve air superiority within twelve hours. Yes, the Iranians have the F-14 and even a few Phoenix missiles. But, they're old and those things can't exactly sit around in their packing crates for twenty years and then broken out and strapped to a plane and perform. They're a little more high-tech than that. Without the tech support, the Phoenix is a nice decoration to make an IRIAF Tomcat look menacing. Also, the Phoenix had mixed results, at best, when in our hands (again Aviators, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think an F-14 launched one with no success against an Iraqi MiG during our Southern Watch operation back in the 90's). The Phoenix was meant for large Soviet bombers or anti-ship missiles that fly straight... not tactical aircraft that evade with the ECM capabilities of an EA-6B watching over them.

As for their air-defense networks, I'll give those a little more credence, but not much. Again, based largely on Hawk missiles (early model) and old Soviet hardware. The time is merely going to be based on how many sorties we can get out at once, but will have little to do with the capability of the Iranians. Besides which, most of the air-defense network will likely be taken out with TLAM's and not direct air strikes.

As far as quantity vs. quality, there is credence in that argument, but only when you're talking about a country with some sort of serious industrial capacity (i.e. China). Yes, quantity may mean something (personally, I believe it does), but the Iranians simply can't make that many airplanes to put the quantity advantage in their corner.

The air and naval war... EASY (with one exception... IF the Iranians can succesfully mine the Straits of Hormuz AND get their Kilo-class subs to deep water in the Indian Ocean). A ground war... at this point, IMPOSSIBLE.

You guys forgot the fact that it's got MiG-29 engines in it. We're all doomed! DOOMED I SAY!

I was disappointed when they finally released the real thing. All the mockups looked like they were at least trying to knock off our F-35, instead we get a scald up and retrofitted F-5. Oh well, that's better for us if we ever have to go smash them.

While the Iranian AC may be easy & cheap to produce (perhaps), as mentioned above, that does not mean that they can train the competant pilots to man them. Even an F-22 with an incomptant pilot at the controls equals a hole in the ground.

Joel I see how well we are doing in Iraq with all our modern weapens. When there are guys like you who needs another Hitler.

Maybe this crate, if that's what it is, is their version of shock and awe. Proof that they're a badass country with its own military industrial complex, not just some 3rd world wannabe that has to scrounge leftovers from the big guys. Whether the thing ever gets off the ground or not is besides the point. It's pr to impress the neighborhood with the might of the greater Iran reich. And it will probably work.

James, you rock. Not only can you answer a well thought out post with completely ambiguous remark, you managed to work in a Hitler allusion as well.

For the professionals here: Abother point to consider when making the quantity vs. quality argument with respect to air supremacy is the value of the pilot in the engagement. A country can build all the planes it wants, but with out a stable professional corps of pilots, having a lot of planes doesn't help. Look at Japan in WWII. They began WWII with probably the best, most seasoned group of naval aviators in the world. After Midway, they were done. Japan could still produce the planes, but there was not a big enough pool to both train new recruits and fight after Midway, leading to areial slaughters like in the Marianas. Aviation experience takes a long time to grow and replace relative to most other types of military forces.

Joel - I also agree with the point about the Naval War. I think the USN is very much up to the task, but mines deployed from small, seemingly non-combatant craft will be tricky, especially with Irans robust shore launched cruise missile network. While I think the air war might take 12 hours, clearing the Straits might take a few weeks if the Mullahs get the jump on laying mines. I think the Kilos will be toasted rather quick either way.

Yall have a good day. Keep up the intellectual "shock and awe" James. This forum needs more geniuses like you.

Has anybody occur to you that these planes may be used as suicide planes, used to crash into naval assets?

The words "asymmetrical warfare" always send a shiver in my spine whenever it is spoken. There is simply no perfect defense.

well I think you took care of that business rather nicely, nerf.

In our era of big spy radars and multilayered naval defenses, it would be especially difficult to pull off a Kamikazi attack, John.

Exocet sea skimmers are far more effective, just google the USS Stark for details.

oh this should be fun!

Our vaunted air superiority (note I do not deny it) may, or may not mean that an air campaign would be over quickly.

The ONLY point I make, re: the iranian fighter and other weapons systems, is this:

if you EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER underestimate your enemy, simply due to your own higher tech, or training....YOU RISK LOSING.

suppose, just for arguments' sake, that this fighter is deliberately meant to mislead us? the Iranians are certainly able to figure out how to use deception.

ok....weve got the top notch planes and pilots....so lets fight an "asymetrical" air war....balloons are cheap, and if made of the proper material, transparent to radar. ok, so Iran puts up hundreds, hell, thousands, of balloons up, each with a passive ACOUSTIC directional locater, and trianulates the whereabouts of those damn noisy U.S. planes.....and then uses that to direct whatever forces they can against those planes........thats asymetrical as hell, would actually work, is doable. Maybe not decisive....but the analogy of the current ground war fiasco as compared to this is appropo.

Again, if our (percieved) arrogance of superiority makes our air forces seem invunerable, we may find out differently, just as we have discovered on the ground in Iraq and Afganistan.

NEVER underestimate your enemy.

James, in the words of Napoleon Dynamite, "GOSH, you're such an IDIOT!" If you'd read my postings, you'd see that I believe that our counterinsurgency efforts in Iraq are NOT going well and that I recommended AGAINST a ground campaign in Iran. And I love the Hitler allusion. Here's a Joel allusion... you're a fucking moron!

Insurgencies... very deadly on the ground. They lose their edge in the air and on the sea. Why? There ain't shit to hide behind in the air and on the ocean. Subs can hide UNDER the water, but require serious maintenance and a well-trained crew... both of which you will find lacking in your typical insurgent.

That being said, I'd give those Kilos a little more credit, Nerf. In shallow water, they're toast. In deep ocean, a diesel sub, in good hands, could be a very real threat to our ships. As a submariner BR of mine says, "there are two kinds of boats... submarines and targets." We know the Kilos are a capable platform... now all we need to find out are if the Iranians are good sub-drivers. My guess... probably not. Which is good for us considering we've been out of practice in the ASW game for awhile.

And John, you have to concede to me that those "Top Gun" MiG-28's were F-5's because I strained you.

Had to throw that one in for good measure. Now just give me an old yell for '97. C'mon, you can do it.

Pride goes before a fall.

"The Iranian's have no idea how to apply modern technology on the battlefield."

Tell that to the crew members of the Israeli warship put out of action by the cruise missle supplied (and maybe launched) by Iranians, or the families of those incinerated in Merkava tanks by Iranian supplied anti-tank missles.

An IED detonated by a cell phone is modern technology. May not be expensive, but it's effective.

97 97 97!

why the hell not? you're in my dykeline....

Hmm, interesting crowd. Let's try to approach this with a little less bravado and a bit more grey matter. By the look of this bird it's clearly intended for ground attack not air-to-air. Thus the need for the improved low-speed low-altitude redmod. The engines are probably upgrades of the j-85 not russian pulls from mig-29s. The wings and tail assembly are composites but the frame seems to be aluminium. The combat range is around 1200km and the throw weight would be in the ballpark of 3 tons. If this merely an upgrade package for Iran's existing f-5Es then the cost would probably be in the ballpark of USD 5 million or less per plane. I'd rule out bvr but pgm/s and either the pl-7 or aa-11 seem a certainty. Overall it seems like a very cost effective and shrewd solution to Iran's military aviation needs.
General question, why is the yahoos, ya know the guys who never do jack but talk as if they've personally seen and done it all, why don't these upstanding fellows lead the charge whenever they label something a cakewalk? War is never a cakewalk, war is never a joking matter, it is the most important art and science man has and it should be treated with reverance. The pentagon fought a major wargame with iran as teh opfor, the wargame cost USD 250 million (more than the entire upgrade cost of irans f-5Es) the results were sobering. Casulties were in the high tens of thousands, fatalities were in the low tens of thousands. You people need to go find a hobby like go kart racing or play some more videogames, but stop playing at war.
P.S. if you're and enlisted or non-comm don't goes double for you, i hate it when the tosters start to bitch, your only duty is to take my piece of bread, lightly brown it and then pop it out. I don't want to hear your opinion about the strategy of how i toast my bread anymore than i want to hear what your uneducated minds think out about the prospects of a campaign; something way above your paygrade and I.Q.

If its a ground attack let the A-10 have a
go at it...After all a F-4-U shot down a
Mig-15 long long ago!!!

Azrael, I see you're trying to bait and I wasn't going to bite, but I'm an enlisted man and, by your definition, uneducated... so stand by.

Judging by your comments, you've never worn a uniform, much less deployed overseas (I'm on my THIRD one, high-speed). You are but an ignorant civilian, never having known the honor of serving your country.

I have two names for you... SGT Ryan Doltz and SPC Edgardo Zayas. SGT Doltz was a non-commissioned officer although he never enjoyed the pleasure of wearing his stripes. They were awarded to him posthumously after he was killed in Iraq. SPC Zayas was wounded in an unrelated incident several weeks before he went back outside the wire and was killed by an IED.

These men were both enlisted and I was not only pleased and privileged to know them... I was humbled. Humbled because these men were far better than me and far better than most people I have come across in my life. I can damn well say they were both better than you. They did not "toast your bread" and YOU wouldn't be worthy to clean the shitwater off their boots after a patrol in an Iraqi town.

So kiss my Army Staff Sergeant (E-6) VMI-grad-but-I-declined-my-commission ass. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

You remember those two names the next time you want to shoot your mouth off about enlisted personnel.

That is the last comment I will make on this topic. To any whom I've offended, I sincerely apologize.

ad Enlisted moron;
Doltz of the 3rd battalion of the 112th and Zayes of 61st cal reg of 4th combat team of the 101 both knew the score when they upped. The coffin and flag is part of the package, right along with the dental and higher ed. In the us of a , politicians decide if we go to war, officers advise said politicians in crafting an overall course of action ( when this advice is ignored we get treated to fiascos like iraq and potentially iran) and then ensure a succesful outcome and cocksucking bottom feeders/ enlisted execute these plans to the best of their abilities. And do you know what? the less an enlistee worries 'bout what's going on upstairs then the more he/she is able to focus on the task at hand, i.e. carrying out their mission. Just because enlistees no longer have to cook, clean or do pretty much of anything except the comabt and immediate combat support roles doesn't mean your superiors want to hear you piss over your heads about the why,whats and hows of a campaign. Shit, we give out medals, commendations and service ribbons out every frigging weak and we still have to hear all this upity belly -aching from the f-ing urchins. s-t-f-u and do your job and just your job. understand? j-o-b.

Blackelk~
The a-10 is not optimized for air-to-air. It would still be prudent to have this role filled by the f's and f/a's regardless of the role of the opfor bird. Use a spoon for soup and a fork for pasta logic doesn't translate to air warfare. Hit everything with the best you got works better.

Just think of the loyalty and respect an asshole like Azrael gets from his guys. Enjoy the air-conditioning, jackass. I'm heading out with my troops, you know, doing that whole "leading" thing...something about which you obviously know nothing. Just stay in your office and keep on feeling important. The rest of us (fellow officers AND enlisted folk) will keep on making you look good while you bark at the phone and order your aides around. And because of you, the first person who calls an enlisted guy a "toster" (I'm guessing you meant "toaster") in my presence will have his ass whipped. Maybe I'll get lucky and it will turn out to be you...

Hitting with the best you have is nice, but sometimes you just have to hit the enemy with whatever is available.
Skyraiders, prop jobs, shot down Migs in Vietnam. They did it because the Migs attacked them and were stupid enough to go low and slow against prop jobs with lots of 20 mm cannon. Superior quality is nice, but if all you have is a rock, use it as best you can.
The M 4 Sherman was no way near as good as a Mark 4 Panzer, but we still won the war through production, tactics and determination.
By the way, many of the enlisted forces have college degrees, so don't look down on them since one day they may be the medic or supply helping you keep your rear end alive.

HH
Having a college degree and having a military education are two completely divergent achievements. A college degreee will prepare you hopefully for a successful life in what is essentially a huge gated community called the first world, a military education will prepare you to handle the logistic nightmare of moving personnel and equipment around the planet thru the the first world and more often then not thru that collective ghetto of misery , poverty and hate known as the third world, a military education will allow you to perceive the technological and sociological currents amongst the world's societies( post -indusrial west, transistioning slavic east states, hindu and chines superstates and the various stripes and hues of the islamic world) that herald changes in tactics and doctrines, thus minimizing the nasty effects of surprises such as suffered by the israelis in s.leb. I'm glad that a large percentafge of toasters take advantage of the oppourtunity to better thmeselves thru higher ed, but that doesn't make them competent to question the orders of their superiors. Their sole mission is to execute their training( not education, but training) in the proscribed manner; everything is standardized to prevent accidents and ensure maxium efficiency, this has been a reciepe for success for hundreds of years. Officers generate plans, non-comm ensure these plans are carried out and the enlisted carry them out, if it aint broke don't fix it.
P.S. god forbid anyone needing a medic, but when that day comes, i'm sure you'd rather have that medic focused on the task before him rather than being distracted by second guesses about the course of action laid out before him either by his superiors or the political leadership.

Azrael, you need to stand down son.

I have both a college degree (well, two of them if you want to be picky) as well as a military education (war college and JMIC). I also have an advanced degree and am in the process of another one. None of those gave me the right to look down upon people who are in a different pay grade than me, nor does my Mensa membership give the right to speak about the I.Q.'s of others - especially because it is a fairly meaningless number.

There are plenty of intelligent enlistees and plenty of foolish officers. I've had gunnies who were worth far more to me than most JO's and seen a few colonels and captains who were barely worth the metal in their rank insignias. A person who doesn't think is nothing more than a drone, and we don't want drones doing this work. A person has a right to question and even refuse an order if they find it to be unethical, immoral or illegal.

So why don't you tone it down a notch and just relax.

Toasters, I love it. I think the new infantry motto needs to be changed from "Follow Me!" to "Follow Me, and make sure you are executing your individual tasks to exact ARTEP standards - no reinventing the wheel - TOASTERS!!" That would make it much clearer to all those pesky Specialists and annoying squito wing PV2 knuckleheads.

While we're at it, we should just change the NCO Creed to "Listen up and make sure the troops do what your superior comissioned officers tell you or you might yet revert to a TOASTER."

Back in the real world, if you think there is a standardized task or published TTP to define something like:

Condition: Given one beached and wrecked, 90ft river barge; 3 five ton trucks dump trucks; and a dicked up haji pontoon bridge.

Task: Create a block obstacle sufficient to prevent insurgent egress from a cordon and search operation over said bridge, effective with cover from only a single LP/OP.

then please point it out, because it might be helpful.

Almost nothing is standardized in stability ops, low intensity conflict, or whatever the hell you want call Iraq. Of course everyone has there own leadership style. Mine tries to avoid sticking a "knife in a toaster" (sorry had to use the pun). Later - Nerf

Let's drop the party line bull. We all know that for every brillant physicist grunting away as an enlistee there are a dozen( this is an overly kind estimate) complete 'tards who couldn't find their own ass with both hands and half a dozen iraqi translators giving him directions. If these kids have any chance of coming home alive it lies in following directions, step by step with no improv.

We are all impressed with the 'future military' promised by a few doctrinal labs that will see swarms of self-motivated self-directed troops swarming a battlefield and being supplied by a seemless jit logistics machine operated by fedEx. This is predicated on having access to high quality troops, high school, some college who want to trade time for an education and a grand tour of the world and then go the reserves. But that's not reality. The caliber of recruits is plummeting as this "garrison" duty in iraq and 'ghanland takes it's toll. More and more potheads and zobs are fleshing out the rank and file. Good material(what little there was) is moving on and the hanger-ons are mainly the sort that don't have the temperment for the high tempo stuff and are way out their league when faced with current cop duty. The stuff you have now spend their off hours figuring out how to make moonshine or sneaking hash from the local habibs. I've even heard they have a crank lab at the elvis side of al rash head ab.

Under these manpower constraints it's better to be safe then sorry. Drill them until they can do it in their sleep, with a minimum of neurons firing, drill them 'til they hate your guts, but if you wanna see them go home and get tatted up, then drill them. Sorry to treat those brillant poet-warriors like toasters, but what are needed are soldiers, professional well drilled soldiers able to work seamlessly with their peers and have a high degree of interchangeability thus reducing management issues, not a bunch of idiosyntric cry babies. And over and out should be applied to the toasters, saddest thing in the world is to see someone move up the non-comm slide based on seniority and nothing else.

ad nerf
the task you lay out is heavy on the jo to use his knowledge to improvise a solution. That solution will take into account his best knowledge of insurgent tactics gleaned thru the online after action reports, his understanding of the topography, weapon systems d&id at his disposal and the standard operating practises of his troops. And the later better damn well be standardized. If your jo is a fatality and they rush you a replacement he better be a plug or play. Heck , the toasters don't even need to be able to read a map, all they have to do is fab and man their positions and know which trail to take to their 2ndary pos. With the advent of the hand uavs they won't even have to perform 4/5 patrol ( the most mentally tasking thing a grunt will ever be asked to execute). No one is out there asking toasters to setup lines of fire, comm links, integrate fires or figure out what the daily-five is going to be with locals(heck most toasters can't find iraq on a map, let alone tell the difference btwn shia,kurd,sunni,turcoman,chaldy,some out town arab journalist or those semi-mythical jihadis from al-qeada inc. the leadership keeps telling us is responsible for everything.

Azrael, you still need to step it down.

In a fairly long military career I've only ever encountered one sailor who wasn't able to find his own ass with both hands (no, it hadn't been blown off and his hands were also attached). He was dropped from training as an EIE. Now, I have seen plenty of young men and women who were ignorant, but that's correctable given a modicum of effort and it is certainly time well spent. Now we train the hell out of them, but not for the purpose of making them into the mindless drones you seem to so eagerly wish them to be. What's the problem? Have you that often been shown up by someone in a lower pay grade that you need to savagely attack them to make yourself feel better?

We train them to accustom them to the environments and situations that they are not yet aware of or capable of handling more than any other civilian. And don't make the mistake that they don't incorporate their own intellect and experiences into their training - that just makes them better. We train them to kill the enemy and come home alive, and that's not a job for a mindless drone or beserker.

I thank God daily that I don't have anyone on my staff with an attitude like the one you're showing here.

If this guy Azrael is in fact an Army officer he is a sad one indeed, one who senior commanders have hopefully already dealt with. I’m sure he is not allowed to command a shit burning detail much less a company of fighting men. I served 22 years in the Air Force and Marines in front line deploying units retiring as a SNCO. I have only run into two officers who had such a low opinion of the average enlisted man. Both of these individuals were identified as dirt bags and were shown the door as soon as feasible.

I just can’t fathom an attitude like this. In my own personal experience in aircraft maintenance most officers let the SNCO’s run the line. Because of their lack any real training in aircraft systems, the smart ones deferred to the SNCO’s to ensure that the job and mission were accomplished. This is no slam on them as many were very bright and eager Lt’s and Capt’s; they simply were not given the tools to work with to actually run a flight line unit. To this day I’m convinced the Air Force needs to offer a Warrant Officer program. This would help cut down on the brain drain as highly qualified E-7 and E-8’s elect to retire and start second careers in industry rather than continue to serve with very limited opportunity for advancement.

I had the pleasure of working with some true professionals from the Army, SNCO’s who were in Special Forces and aviation battalions. Many of these men simply due not have the time to pursue a degree that would allow them to be commissioned. Thankfully the Army understands this and keeps a healthy Warrant officer program going. I can guarantee any of the SF SNCO’s I’ve met are better tactical combat leaders than Azrael.

In my own case I finished a BS with honors prior to my retirement. Even though I was too old to apply for any available commissioning program I encouraged my men to do. Many have completed both AS and BS programs and three are officers currently flying F-16, KC-135 and F-15E aircraft. In my own case since retirement 5 years ago I’ve built a very successful career now making over 100K with a Fortune 50 company. Not bad for a toaster.

I should take most of the above comment were made by some American teenagers in a Pub, please guys do yourselves a favour and slap yourselves in the face as hard as you possibly can to wake yourselves up. Just listen to yourselves, please try to think, I know it’s hard to start with. This is the only way to help yourselves.

James:

What?!?

Azreil....Azriel....Such a shame that you have so much apparent education and so little good sense (and no small amount of professional insecurity to boot). In the words of the famous Gunny "choke yourself, no, with my hand numb nuts". God forbid you ever have the opportunity to lead men far better than you into battle. You sound like a passed over Captain in the Serbian Army with all that tripe and vitriol you've been spewing...

I did not expect you to catch my drift the first time. i.e. (Comprehend what I am trying make you do) ......use the dictionary and try to understand the meaning of (THINK)..... Then try to be a free Thinker.... Try again....I never claimed its easy……. I love you son....don't be surprised..

James: learn to speak proper English, and then come back and try to insult us. We might pay more attention to you that way. Until then, I'll just ignore you. Off you go.

I counted seven pages of posts Here!amazing !!! before reading these columns I believed that the news aired from teheran was targetting domestic media with hitler propaganda like news, trying to provoke Iranians and prepare them for the harsh time comming!
I am amazed how a stupid lie like this can make you americans shiver like this !
I'm no fighter pilot but as an Iranian mechanical engineer ,I tell you we never believed in sub-surface missiles and over the night Fighter manufacturing capabilities.we just laught at them. but now I see there are people across the world that spend hundreds of hours discussing a ridiculous lie intended solely to isolate more my country more than it is today.

I counted seven pages of posts Here!amazing !!! before reading these columns I believed that the news aired from teheran was targetting domestic media with hitler propaganda like news, trying to provoke Iranians and prepare them for the harsh time comming!
I am amazed how a stupid lie like this can make you americans shiver like this !
I'm no fighter pilot but as an Iranian mechanical engineer ,I tell you we never believed in sub-surface missiles and over the night Fighter manufacturing capabilities.we just laught at them. but now I see there are people across the world that spend hundreds of hours discussing a ridiculous lie intended solely to isolate more my country more than it is today.

Who's shivering? It's probably a fiberglass mock-up, anyway. Besides, all they're really discussing here is the best way to turn your country into a smoking ruin. Tick, tock, tick, tock...

Who's shivering? It's probably a fiberglass mock-up, anyway. Besides, all they're really discussing here is the best way to turn your country into a smoking ruin. Tick, tock, tick, tock...

Who's shivering? It's probably a fiberglass mock-up, anyway. Besides, all they're really discussing here is the best way to turn your country into a smoking ruin. Tick, tock, tick, tock...

Outdated piece of trash... Its an F-5 with F-18 vertical stabilizers. no match for our 16's 15's or our 18's...

Oh yea, just read "surene"'s stupid ass comment... It doesn't matter if this piece of trash is real or not buddy. We have the best Air Force in the World. Period. Anything the enemy puts up in the air is gonna get shot down by us. Who's shivering??? The only thing that makes me shiver is how hairy you crazy bastards are.

truth is truth tat iran is not tat much strong as much as da western powers r but iran knows how to defend it self every civilian of iran is ready to give his life mehmood nisad is da stronget person ive ever seen in ma whole life god bless iran an america sucks man

Well, with geniuses like you in her service, haris, Iran cannot fail in her quest for regional domination. Western intelligence agencies are poring over your comments right now, hoping to glean anything of value out of your words of wisdom. Hopefully, when we stomp you back into the 7th century, your people will use the opportunity to learn proper punctuation and grammar.

he he

i like donuts

he he

hey.evrething that iran improve or develop or create the american say it copy of...................is what the ameican know only.hey all the fighter jets are copy ale have a noise wings.and they can drops bombs so stop sying some fucking word.ok!!!!!!!!!!1

can 1 of u tell me what israel devolp or improve or create? 1 thing only?

Well..No, I wouldn't worry too much about their new jet. Then again, they probably were not planning on taking on several Naval Air Wings with it anyway. And I don't give the Iranians much chance against NAVair. Remember, though, that we trained the Iranians and those junior officers whom we taught could be in senior positions. They know what they are up against. I doubt that they want to go head to head with F-18s, but will try to get around them and attack the ships. If they can employ their Sunburn missiles, it could be ugly. My money says that NAVair and the USAF will kick their asses, but they have a chance to get in a few licks. Hezbollah surprised the Israelis....the Iranians might also have a few tricks we don't know about. I think they will give a decent account of themselves considering what they are up against. If they are so stupid and backward like many people think they are, why are we worrying about them building a nuke? They are smarter than you think.

You American Infidels obsessed with your drunken debauchery and wicked women of loose morals and your twisted scornful thinking of God will be your down fall.

This super weapon will bring you to your knees. The proper and correct name is the "Bin Jalopy al Kamikaze al-Jihad al-Islami!"

Allah-Akbar

Obviously Iran can not be as developed as USA .. it requires time .. but they are relying on theirself ..this is the sign of a nation who has the vision and self- confidence not like beggar countries to USA .

All the best to Iran ..they are working hard as united country for improvement .. [b]shame on USA who compares itself with small country like Iran .. ! [/b]

Come to Iran and back in your coffins. Iranian are waiting for you. You think that you can determine the term of the war. But Iranian will attack you when ever you are. You will see that you will lose your killer (solders that are good for killing Iraqi people) by more rate. Hell is waiting for you. Look at Israel and learn how Hezbollah (That trained and supported by Iran) defeated Israel. You can be proud of your black history for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Rootless murder that is capable for killing kids and civilian.

Wars maybe fought with weapons, But they are won by men!! Planes alone cant win wars. look at the past, and look at the current war..now whos winning? hmm let me think...

USA might be advanced in technology but they cant win wars..remeber vietnam anyone?? look at iraq..the british are running away. wheres there power now?? If the USA was powerfull enough why did they take the british to war with them?? could they not handle iraq alone ?? shame!

Type JUBA on google and see what it finds...A sniper Unseen, He shoot, He kills the american scum are falling like flies. look at the USA army hospital in germany, over 10,000 american soldiers are without arms & legs. The americans can only fight unarmed men,women and children..Ur fall is coming. Ur days are over.

You obnoxious braggarts can discount Iran all you want, but when the day comes to attack them, the Navy's going to have to contend with a shit load of kamikazes and Sunburn missiles.

See those wooden flying boats? Those are suicide planes.

I think going to war with iran would be bad for america. Only because u.s. is underestimating irans military capabilitys. if you dont agree with me well thats your problem. u will just half to watch it on cnn when it finnaly comes to war.

hey people
why you think you must always have enemy's?
or every development is against you!!??
i offer change your thinking cap .
sorry but dont be sheep .
Iran is not hell for you if you dont want see it same .

some

I had no idea the iranians had a "Pimp My 1980's Era Fighter Jet" show.

When I was station in MD at the Navy Test Pilot School, they had several iranian pilots training along side our pilots and they are very familiar with our F-18 and or Gone but not forgotten F-14. Don't believe these guys have new cue what they are doing. As far as the plane is concerned, I'm sure they stole that too.

I remember the run up before Desert Storm, when a senior army intelligence friend expressed concern to me that the Iraqi army would inflict a lot of casualties. In the event, it was astounding how quickly they were massacred. Ditto for this war. In 60 days our forces demolished the Iraqi forces. Now the Iranians sound a lot like Tariq Aziz and Saddam. But Iran and Iraq fought each other to a draw. I think they probably understand that, while 12 hours might be optimistic, Iran's forces would be defeated in a matter of days.
The problem, as in Iraq, is the aftermath. Our basic miscalculation was that we would be seen there as liberators. There may be a small minority in Iraq and Iran who see us that way, but most have a mindset similar to bin Laden, that we are crusaders attacking the Ummah.
Actually, I think changing their minds would be exactly parallel to Janet Reno changing Randy Weaver's mind at Ruby Ridge. Anyone think that could have ever happened?
So what good is a military victory in a few days, if the result is the creation of 50 million Terry Nichols'?

dave:

the whole idea of a weekend war with iran is them dying not us.

in the air war shooting them at long distances so that they don't have a chance against us is called survival. thats why our radars, aircraft missle systems etc. have such long range.

you mention the straits of hormuz, well the first thing is that the straits are suprizingly wide. at least 40 miles if you look at the maps. aircraft carriers are about 300 feet wide, or were the last time i looked. i know that this is oversimplification but you got to take size into account.

a significant amount of major seabattles in the last couple of centuries have been in straits. one thing the navy does is to study historical naval engagements and apply the "lessons learned"

about the submarines. the major fight with the submarines will be in the united states navy. that is, who gets him. will it be sub on sub, destroyer with an anti sub missle, helicopter from whatever with a torpedo, depthcharge, whatever, whatever, whatever.

as for mines, yes they will be a major problem. but mines can cut both ways and thats all i will say on that subject.

one particular feature of the naval part of a weekend war is that the action will occour between protagonists that are many many miles apart.

we have already seen the thing. it will be pictures of missles being launched from cruisers, aircraft being launched from carriers, large explosions in foriegn lands.

we've seen it all but the body count a few days later will tell the tail.

c

Better not mess with a peaceful nation, such as Iran, with no evidence of violence against any other countries, but dedicated to protect itself and its citizens! Continued supply of these home made, means that anyone disrespecting an inch of Iranian soil will be hunted down. Great Iranian scientists and engineers, as found all over the US and the world, will perfect these bombers in time. Until then, courage, guts, motivation and strong relation with God will compensate for lack of their superiority in technology against those who have been building war machines for decades. Remeber, technology is not sufficient to win wars and wars only add to world problems - take a look at Iraq. Better to resolve difference through communications and increased tolerance.

PK, you, sick son of a bitch, are correct, you wouldn't have the guts to fight one-on-one on the ground. You would hide in the planes and shoot randomly killing innocent people and destroying civilian infrastructures. Isn't that what just happened in Lebanon? Guess who won that war? Go see you psychologist, you need help.

Until then, courage, guts, motivation and strong relation with God will compensate for lack of their superiority in technology against those who have been building war machines for decades.

If you believe that, you're underestimating the United States.

This is a cardinal tenet of most Islamist movements, that their martial spirit and religious fidelity trumps all. Didn't work for the Japanese, and they were technological peers until the late war. It won't work for Iran either, I'm sorry to say. It's going to take years to break people of the idea that the US won't fight back, but the fact that we've been in Iraq for four years and are taking casualties -- and are still there -- is maybe a good clue. It may take a couple of decades before it sinks in, but we still have troops in Germany and Japan 62 years on -- and we like them.

We won't invade Iran. We don't have the manpower at the moment, though if you Persian chest-beaters want to get nervous, imagine an Iraqi Army that is armed, trained, equipped and led by Americans marching toward Tehran. I seriously doubt that will happen, but if you need to stay up at night worrying about something, that will do.

What we can do, with relative impunity, is destroy everything in your country back to a technological level approximating 1800 AD or so, including all your oil, electrical and water infrastructure, and if we get busy on the EMP front (or impatient and pop a LEO nuke) everything electronic you own.

I don't want to do that, I don't think it's a good idea. Iran is a great country with a proud history, which currently suffers from leadership that is in the process of making a fatal error in the enemy selection process. I encourage you to address the issue of your leadership's choices before issuing promises about an invasion that will never come, and hollow threats about an air attack you cannot prevent.

let have a look at enemy selecetion process: as i see it's you at continue seek for enemy! i'm not talking about "latine america" or any other place that you have interfere after second war,i'm talking about my county IRAN.i remember trough hystory when at1960 our peaple was made its national gouvernement ,it has been you that cause an coup d'etat against them & coming back the dictator SHAH.i also remember after our glorios revolution against your doll ,it was you again that provoke sadam to attack my country.it was your wise leadership's choices!!! as i'm a medicine student i have the peace (and dialogue)as my priority:you came in ours countries and took & supply a minor perverted sect called wahabist in saoudi arabi (or in afganistan as taliban)to be your manpower against soviet just becaus they have been the must stupid!& after cold war you have use them as a pretext to declar war against free country in meadle-east that all their demande was the liberty & independence but it has'nt a good smell for juive's loby in your country!(apart iran you can take a look at the palestinian that since last century their lands was occupied & are devastating to pull them back to 18 century!!!it's all you can do,you the world saver's and prophet's of democratie).I propose you to have a better idea about islam(which mean peace),at least take a look at "holy qoran" & "surat of mariam" that talk about great prophet jesus(the peace of god be with him).in the same time you can see in holy book about jahad that mean fighting for god by defending the islamic landes & peaples.Iran is not hell for you if you dont want see it same but if you want so then it will be A BIG ONE.after all we have here both of the "martial spirit and religious fidelity"and "acceptable technology",A COBINAISON YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFOR!!and it's just the begining,wait for the rest!(when you have self confidence there is no limmit!).be quiet we are not here a repulic of banan as you have seen before.you talking about IRAN a country with a larg brilliant history behind ,that was awaken 30 years ago and be sure it will take his place.you talking about more than 70,000,000 basiji ,in a country of 1,700,000 km2 , and an economy of more than 400 BILLIONS $ PNB (compare it by 30 millions iraqi , in700,000 km2 ,and just 20 billions $ PNB when you have attacked them,and remember 20 millions iraqi's shiaa had detested saddam,but here me and all my compatriots are attending for order of jahad from AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI and perhaps the iraqi's shiaa ara attendig to! to taking the emam hossein way :the way of prophet's son.) here i propose you to be freind of IRAN, and correcting your past fault's.

mostapha-irannian student of IUMS

Oh my god, you lot are all nuts. No war with Iran. Have we not learned the lessons of the past. Here in Britian we are in no shape to take on any more military commitment, our current hardware sucks across all three sections of the military, With the exception of maybe the waste of taxpayers money eurofighter and the F22 we bought off you lot that you wont give us the computer codes for. Right now we suck, we need to stay in Iraq for as long as the u.s., finish what we started. then pull out go home and get our shit together. Our new aircraft carriers come online soon but even then they are just rowboats compared to yank ones...Why cant we ever do anything properly.

OMG!,,,,THE MIGHTY USA..let the world shutter at their very exsistance,,with their mighty armed forces. come on people,,wake up. sure you have advanced military technology,,stealth aircraft,,mighty carriers, but it doesn't seem to help in a conflict situation now does it. go back to the cuban invasion in the 60's,you FAILED that one. then in the 60's-70's, viet nam. you FAILED in that one too. now lets jump ahead to the first iraq war. well if i remember correctly, you FAILED that one too. then comes bush jr.'s "shock and awe" iraqi invasion. well face it,,,you FAILED that one big time as well..finally comes aphganistan. guess what!,,,another FAIL. UMM,,,i'm just wondering. does anybody else see a pattern?,,because i sure do. now there are some of you that would love the usa to invade iran. a country with 70,000,000 people that love their leader. do you honestly think iranian people will sit down peacfully while the usa invades.I DON'T THINK SO!!!!. you will end up with a serious ass kicking. and once again you will FAIL.

This aircraft is nothing more than a revamped F-5E. It may well have upgraded electronics, but that does not make it an effective warplane.
Iran has two air forces, the "normal" air force, and Revolutionary Guards air force. Which one will get these planes? Probably the RG.
The level of training and the experience of the pilots will of course, be the real deciding factor. It's not very likely that the Iranian aircrews are on a par with US aircrews, or even close to their level of experience and expertise. And just like the Korean War, those are the factors that are going to be decisive in our favor.
No matter how good the technology, it will all come down to the people flying the aircraft.

As for the Shaeqeh itself, the claim that it is superior to the F/A-18 is ludicrous, and is meant to fool the people of Iran into believing that its military is more capable than it really is.
I doubt that if there is any increase in performance over the F-5. But if there is, it's only marginal.
Another thing to consider, how many of these planes exist and are operational, and what production rate can Iran sustain? And what about training pilots? IMHO, there is no way that this aircraft will be opearional in strength in less than 3 years, at best. More likely 5 years.

Nope, this is just more Iranian propaganda.

The policy of the US has always been to create fear among its people so that it can manipulate people to go to wars. All the wars are games created by old men such as Chaney, Rumsfeld and Bush, but young innocent Americans are the ones who die in the process - such as nearly 4000 just in Iraq so far and thousands of others permanently injured. Awhile back, it was Russian, China, Iraq and now Iran! The defense contractors in the US need projects to build and sell their expensive war machineries and the oil men need tension to raise the price of oil. Unless there is tension and/or war, they cannot build and cannot raise. On top of that, while there are many intelligent Americans, most of them are politically naive and uninformed - due to biased news media, hence, they go for whatever they are fed - such as weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and development of nuclear weapons in Iran. Otherwise, while Iran is disgusted with US foreign policies, as most intelligent people in the world are, particularly with its on-sided policy toward Palestinian situation, Iran is a peaceful nation, as records indicate, and Iranians have one of the greatest civilizations in the world and wish no harm to anyone. However, attacking them and disrespecting their home land is something that no Iranian will accept and as they already defeated the US and Europeans in the previous war staged from Iraq through their own man: Saddam Hossain, they will do it once again. What US needs to do is end the hostility in Iraq, by returning every one of the troops back, reconsider its policies toward the middle east and begin taking care of tremendous problems that it has in its own society: alcoholism, drug abuse, racial un-equality, gangs, organized crime and various type of crimes. Start placing more emphasize on what made this country a great nation as it once was and what is making Iran a great nation: education. Part of education should be to allow American people to hear the correct news and be involved with the affairs of their own government. American people, short of a few on this board who brag about how sophisticated their war machines are and after so many destructive wars still would like to try it to kill more, the ones who have started the war in Iraq and do not want to let go of it, are intelligent and caring people and don't want to harm. But that does not mean that other countries, such as Iran, should not push forward with technology as fast as they can and not take all precautionary measures to protect themselves. It does not matter that Saegheh, presently, may not match the technological superiority of those who have been making such machines for decades, what matters is that they will perfect it as times go by and its local steady supply will ensure that those with evil wishes will be punished. Lack of technological superiority will be compensated with believe to protect their families and homeland, stand against an aggressor, guts, loyalty and strong relationship with God.

Mosta pha,

Congratulations on your medical studies. I am a physician in the US. One of my classmates was from Iran, and since he and his family are the only Iranians I really know, I believe that in general you are intelligent, warm, kind and successful people. You perceive some disrespect intended toward you, this is not the case I assure you. I am sure that in time your country and mine will have warm relations, as befitting two proud and successful peoples.

But you see, there is this issue of the 1979 embassy takeover. That is in the category of 'Acts of War', something you apparently don't acknowledge -- though I am sure that if we arrested Mr. Ahmedinejad in NYC this week and held him for 444 days you would certainly raise some objection.

Your point about the 1953 coup (I assume you meant 1953, since that was when the Mossadegh government was overthrown and the Shah installed) is legitimate. We messed with other countries when we felt our interests were threatend, and right or wrong we felt our interests were best served by denying the USSR a warm-water port in 1953. There was this whole 'Cold War' thing, perhaps you've heard of it.

We didn't do this lightly, and we've rarely done it successfully. But the circumstances surrounding the Mossadegh coup, namely an embargo on the sale of Iranian oil and economic collapse as a result, are perilously close to happening. We don't want to steal your oil, we'll buy it on the open market like everyone else. The trick is that your economy would suffer a tremendous hit if your ability to sell oil abroad was curtailed, and that is one mission the US Navy can certainly accomplish.

Not only can the US wreck your country, we could also help it. Terrorism is the asymmetric warfare of the dispossessed or powerless, fiscal ruin is the asymmetric warfare of the rich and powerful. Did you know that your country hasn't even been able to meet its OPEC quota for the past few years, due to mismanagement of the oil fields by the government? We can make it exceptionally hard for you to get capital with which to maintain your God-given assets, or on the contrary we can make it very easy for your nation to lever its petroleum into the well-educated and internationally-savvy populace that you want it to be. The trick is, you can't have access to part of the lanthanide series of elements on your own -- and it's not just us the Great Satan saying this, it's also the French and the British and the Germans and most everyone who doesn't want to see the Israelis rain fire on your nation.

Your millions of basij are totally irrelevant to the conflict that will come. They will never have an enemy to fight, unless you can build some kind of catapult to throw them up to 30,000 feet and hope they get sucked into the intake of a jet engine. If the Russians were serious about securing you from attack they would have sold you the S.300 or S.400 anti-aircraft missile systems -- instead they sold you something only effective below 10,000 feet. The old stuff the Shah bought is well past its fire-by date, and we know how to knock it all out of the sky anyway.

There will never be an American boot on your soil. Nothing dampens revolutionary zeal like starvation, man. That's what will happen -- your nation will be cut off, no imports, no exports, no entering and no leaving. Your anti-aircraft and anti-ship assets will be disabled, and then we'll just wait. The cupboard will go bare, the price of gasoline will triple, and it gets pretty cold in the winter in Iran from what I have been told. You can do a lot of things with oil, but eating it isn't an option.

I can promise you though, it won't be the mullahs who starve first.

Lack of technological superiority will be compensated with believe to protect their families and homeland, stand against an aggressor, guts, loyalty and strong relationship with God.

First, you won't ever see an aggressor to engage. Guts, loyalty and a strong relationship with God are fine qualities, but if you don't have a target, then they're not good martial qualities.

Second...what if God is on our side?

Dave,

now lets jump ahead to the first iraq war. well if i remember correctly, you FAILED that one too.

I wonder how that one is remembered in the region? I bet the Kuwaitis and Saudis would give you a different opinion, and the Iraqis who survived it might not consider it the best 100 hours of their lives.

Considering that the GW I campaign is the fastest, most succesful example of maneuver warfare in history, one that would have George S. Patton saying "DAMN!" could he witness it, and one that will be studied in textbooks for generations alongside Chancellorsville and the Run for the Rhine in 1944, I'm thinking that it's hard to consider that a failure.

SVN fell because the Congress wouldn't support them any longer. The insurgency was over by the time we left, the NVA took SVN in a conventional land attack in 1975 that a visit from the B-52s and A-6s would have done a lot to hamper.

The reason the US fails to achieve victory is that we don't apply our full conventional force, usually for political reasons. The solution to Afghanistan for example is to invade northwest Pakistan, but there are major political ramifications for that, not to mention logistical problems and the fact that mountains aren't good tank country.

As much as you may not like it, the initial invasion of Iraq was enough to make Libya cough up their WMD program, so it was at least impressive to people without your rarefied judgment -- and things are improving in Iraq. There were significant mis-steps early on, but the nice thing about the ability to criticize in public is that the missteps are noted and doctrine adjusted. This doesn't occur so much in countries where reality not fitting the doctrine is assumed to be a failure of reality.

You appear to assume that because we have a hammer everything looks like a nail. This is not the case. Invading Iran on the ground is not an option, but that does not mean there are no other options. There are always options, and we're getting a bit smarter at choosing between them.

Voi vittu te jenkit ootte itserakkaita kusipäitä!

Nautin siitä kun teitä lakoaa kuin heinää Irakissa.

For Campbell and MikeG,

So where do they scam the children to hide the aircraft behind (to say nothing of the drag they'll induce). As for poor man's war, I guess they've gotten a handle on planting IED's in clouds to instill caution in U.S. Pilots.

heyyyy t heads.

the idea of standoff weapons is for me to live and you to die.

see george pattons thoughts on the matter.

toodel oo

C

a couple of other things.

i misspoke about it being a weekend war.

it would be a large RAID.

repeated as necessary.

if we don't have boots on the ground then they can't use ieds and asymmetric warefare against us.

for those who say that you havn't conquered a country until you have a pimply faced teenager with a rifle standing in front of their capital building, i say simply conduct explosive attitude adjustments occasionally until they get the hint.

yes i know it used to be called fortress america.

the only boots on the ground in iran would be on beachheads where the army would set up long range artillery and then leave.

by the way. usn has had several "educational" sessions with the iranian navy and left the scene victorious.

perhaps we might have the ffg roberts show the flag a time or two.

in the case of several of the iranian ships the only pictures availaible are of them on fire on the entire main deck (for the dry feet among us, a bad sign).

C

Dirka? Dirka-dirka-dirka-dirka. Dirka-dirka-dirka-dirka,dirka-dirka-dirka-dirka
Dirka-dirka-dirka-dirka!

>Dk

All jokes aside, I like the new tail configuration. It will make for attractive silhouettes painted under the canopy rails of our fighter planes when the time comes. Or will they simply paint miniature Iranian flags?
Joel · September 7, 2006 04:34 AM

________

I would paint little pieces of crap to represent them....

You all suck ass...Iran used to be something, now they are using old U.S. hardware to cause a stir, but they are no more formidable than Krasnovia. What? Exactly!

NEVER UNDER ESTIMATE THE OTHER GUY

16 U.S. NAVAL SHIPS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PERSIAN GULF! INCLUDES ONE AIRCRAFT CARRIER DESTROYED -- Recent War Games Disaster.

Is this result the REAL reason the Bush Administration has threatened Iran with severe attack for 3 full years now, only to back down each time? Has America's dependence upon high technology to fight the Russian Navy doomed our forces?
Now, let us return to this news story. The American officer leading the "enemy" -- the "Force Red" team -- was "the straight-talking Marine commander who had been brought out of retirement to lead Force Red. His name was Lt. Gen. Paul Van Riper, and he had played the role of the crazed but cunning leader of the hypothetical rogue state ... In the first days of the 'war', Van Riper's Force Red sent most of the US fleet to the bottom of the Persian Gulf."
The tactics adopted by this Marine Corps general were astounding and they produced "The Worst US Naval Disaster Since Pearl Harbor".
"The war game was described as 'free play', meaning that both sides were unconstrained, free to pursue any tactic in the book of war in the service of victory ... Much of the action was computer-generated. But representative military units in the field also acted out the various moves and countermoves. The comparison to a chess match is not inaccurate. The vastly superior US armada consisted of the standard carrier battle group with its full supporting cast of ships and planes. Van Riper had at his disposal a much weaker flotilla of smaller vessels, many of them civilian craft, and numerous assets typical of a Third World country."
"But Van Riper made the most of weakness. Instead of trying to compete directly with Force Blue, he utilized ingenious low-tech alternatives. Crucially, he prevented the stronger US force from eavesdropping on his communications by foregoing the use of radio transmissions. Van Riper relied on couriers instead to stay in touch with his field officers ... At every turn, the wily Van Riper did the unexpected. And in the process he managed to achieve an asymmetric advantage ... Astutely and very covertly, Van Riper armed his civilian marine craft and deployed them near the US fleet, which never expected an attack from small pleasure boats ... Force Red's prop-driven aircraft suddenly were swarming around the US warships, making Kamikaze dives. Some of the pleasure boats made suicide attacks. Others fired Silkworm cruise missiles from close range, and sunk a carrier, the largest ship in the US fleet, along with two helicopter-carriers loaded with marines ... the Navy was unprepared. When it was over, most of the US fleet had been destroyed. Sixteen US warships lay on the bottom, and the rest were in disarray. Thousands of American sailors were dead, dying, or wounded.

"If the games had been real, it would have been the worst US naval defeat since Pearl Harbor."
Now, we realize that we have a military vulnerability most people did not know we had -- close-in fighting with a foe armed with modern weaponry. Perhaps this reality is the reason we have not actually attacked Iran. Will we ever attack her? We know the propaganda on which a supposed attack is based is false: Iran already possesses nuclear weaponry and is not now in the process of "getting close to building warheads".
We shall just have to wait to see what happens, and pray that a lot of American sailors and marines do not pay with their lives.

we have all lost wars and battles in our histories...EVERY country on the planet. I guess they dont sell the movie "The 300" in Iran. Look what happened the last time you guys thought you had a great empire and could take on anyone. ...and what happened??? 300 barely dressed Greeks kicked the living snot out of your entire empire and its army in about 3 days. We are all different...we need to set that all aside so we can get along and let our kids grow up in a more peaceful world..

I'm Iranian, You just don't get it do you? We are not suggesting that our jets are the best; the point is that 30 years ago we couldn't make a needle but now we're making our gears on our own. Of course our planes are no match for your F/A 22s (but our S-300s are), we're not counting on them; we are counting on 250 Su-30s and J-10s. You talk too much; the man was right there must be some reason for your inaction in our nuclear case. As the other man said, before commenting on our familiarity with modern tech, check with the crew members of the Israeli warship put out of action by the cruise missile supplied (and maybe launched) by Iranians, or the families of those incinerated in Merkava tanks by Iranian supplied anti-tank missiles. Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo Yankee Oscar Uniform…