Requiem For The Military Club System

This is very sad to learn, sir, but more than that it is just as you state....the junior officers are being deprived of invaluable expertise learned in a somewhat more relaxed venue, and the senior officers of the best way of learning more about those in their command.

One of my uncles, a pilot who had served in both the RCAF and the USAF, often said that it was THE best way for him to really get a handle on those in the squadron.

A sad sign of the times, yes. A greater loss is what everyone learns at the O Club.

Veritas et Fidelis Semper

I see it at ARMY and Air Force clubs too...
wonderful facilities that used to be noisy hubs for socializing are now dead.
I think it's because of "Demon Rum".
No one can take the chance of being accused of contributing to someone becoming an alcoholic...
no one wants to answer why he sent that young Lieutenant driving home with a blood/alcohol level of .09.
Happy hours- gone.
Bingo nights- gone.
The chance to learn not just the trade but the "tricks"- gone.
What a shame.

back when I was stationed at Vandenberg AFB, the club scene was pretty strong. On fridays, at least.

Remember how my mom used to tell me that when my folks were stationed at USNS Rota (before I came along), they were at the club every night. It's just what the officers there did.

Pinch has some great stories on this too. Apparently back at NAS Oceana, they used to bus the local girls in on Fridays nights for the Tommy drivers.

But more and more, I see the O'club life dying. Guess it depends on the base, but you're right Sir, it's a tragedy.

Sadly it is not just the "O" clubs, it is all the clubs. I first saw the decline start in the 70's when Ye Olde Acey Duecy clubs were integrated into the enlisted clubs. I also think there is the problem of political correctness now. If we want all our service members to be slim, trim fit and clear eyed, the traditional club does not project that vision. In the old days I took my youngsters to the club for some EMI and comradree, as has been said you could learn alot up and down the chain. The AF base I reside near now has what appears to be a great combined club, O's one side and E's on the other with a huge ballroom in the middle. I sometimes go there for a Sunday brunch but wonder how long that will continue as it appears that not even that is supported. I guess the clubs will soon be like the Phantom and Forrestal class CV's, gone but fondly remembered!

My experiences were in the '80s, but I think part of the problem may just be demographics. Something that was very clear to me personally was that when I was at Goodfellow AFB as a 2Lt the club was a popular place for Junior officers. There would usually be some senior officers and retired VIPs from around town there, but J.O.s made up a clear majority. The result was both fun and educational. Undoubtedly, this was mainly because Goodfellow is an Officer training base in a relatively small town.
When I went to Peterson AFB the situation was entirely different. The O-Club was mainly a place for retired folks to socialize. There were a lot of senior officers on base (I literally saw more Generals most days than 2Lts), and a large retired community off base. As a consequence, none of the J.O.s I knew would ever consider go to the O-Club to socialize.
Demographically, I think Peterson was closer to the norm than Goodfellow. Because of the way the armed services have evolved over recent decades, there are a lot more retirees than active J.O.s. Now it may be the case that all those old WWII/Korea/Veitnam vets are themselves getting too old to socialize, leaving few behind at the O-Club. It may be that the time has come to reclaim the O-Club as a fun place for young soldiers, but it's going to take some changes.

During my drill weekends, the O-club is not even open. It closes at 2100 on Friday night, and I don't usually pull in until around 2230.

Now, I will say that last year when I was drilling at WPAFB, we ventured to their O-club a couple of times (even if it was the Air Force) and I was quite impressed. There were a number of folks who had just gotten done for the day, in uniform, having conversation over a couple of pitchers.

I can remember going to the one at the main BOQ at Norfolk (NOB). I think it was called Thimble Shoal Inn, but we called it Earl's after the guy who ran it. Folks told me he was a former aircrewman who was awarded the Navy Cross in Viet Nam. It was a good after work watering hole that we could get the WR to on a semi-regular basis. I was in there last year, and it seemed to be going strong.

Overall, though, I tend to agree that the O-clubs and what they bring to the whole experience are (and have been) on a decline.

One more nail in the coffin that we call tradition...

It really is unfortunate that as times have changed clubs have become all but a dim memory. Having been brought up in the service (Navy) I have fond memories of Sunday brunches and evenings out at O'clubs in any number of places. In those days I saw the club as a wonderful place for a shared family experience.

I enlisted in the Corps at a time when most young Marines were single and lived in squad bays. Most of us were generally short on funds, didn't have cars, and did our socialization and drinking at the Enlisted Club. And on many occasions you could find senior Marines, the Gunnery Sergeants, the First Sergeants, and even the occasional Sergeant Major, there hoisting a libation and sharing their profound store of professional experience.

After I was commissioned I found that I learned much about the business of being an officer at the club, and I also found more than a few of my now fellow officers who were interested in both my viewpoint, and my experiences as an enlisted Marine.

And I was honored when my staff NCOs would invite me into their club for a drink and to share their hospitality and their experiences.

But those days are now long gone. First, there are far fewer batchelors, either officer or enlisted these days. At the end of the day people tend to want to go home. And even the single people live far differently these days. Most batchelor officers seem to prefer to live off base. And the junior enlisted no longer live in squad bays, now they live in dorms that are far better than the college dorms of my day. They can drink, and socialize there, or they can get into their cars and go to town.

Secondly, in many of the small southern towns that I recall, there were very limited entertainment options. You could drink in a honkytonk. You could go to the usually one theater in town, or you could stay on base. Now virtually everyone has cable TV, and a DVD player. Add in computers and music systems and the entertainment options are virtually limitless. Why get dressed to go to the club when you can sit at home, eat Domino's and do your drinking without having to worry about being called a drunk, or being busted for DUI?

We have done everything possible to give our people a better "quality of life" but, I suspect, we have lost an essential part of the special element that makes the profession of arms so special. It was in the clubs that we built that espirit d'Corps, that sense that we belonged to something special. Instead of becoming a part of a unique brotherhood that has been bonded in sweat, and in shared experience, now too many see the service as just another job.

I wish I could propose a fix that would make the clubs relevant again, but I don't think it possible. We have become a society of individualists who aren't particularly interested in the concept of team. It is a shame because the individual misses the opportunity for bonding and learning that so many of us old farts benefitted from. And each of the services misses the added capability that comes from enhanced unit cohesion that was the natural product of the time spent in the clubs.

Marine6 Sends

The comments so far are all spot on. However, I believe the biggest reasons are the enforcemnet of drunk driving and the All Ranks Clubs.

Getting caught driving on base after a couple beers is not worth the career risk. The CYA at the command level also works to discourage alcohol.

The All Ranks Clubs are the final straw. As a MSgt, I don't want to go to the club and watch a bunch of kids making fools of themselves getting drunk and singing karaoke. And the troops sure don't want me hanging around looking over their shoulder.

Former enlisted Navy here.

I know our base club was dying because of the very high likelyhood that, if you were there more than two nights in a row and had more than two drinks on those two nights, you'd be reported as an alcoholic. The only time there was a decent crowd was when they had the Mongolian BBQ on Thursday.

Otherwise, the coffee shop was the only place pulling in much cash, and it had wifi and very nice Japanese ladies. (Hey, I'm female, but I did notice how it took me 30 seconds to order and most guys took five minutes or more. ;^))

Sasebo, Japan.

Two words:

Force Protection

Ive only been in since the first Gulf War so I dont know what it was like before then, though I can take a pretty good guess. But, once the gates closed to the natives, the club system was doomed. No women=no LTs. Places like the Blackhawk Club in Swingen Bued-ingen, the Rod and Gun in Hanau, the Eagle/Adler in Schweinfurt and Fiddler's Green on Knox just died.

Kevin

yup, I think Kevin nailed it.

I had great times, and not-so-great times at the O Clubs at Kirtland, Sheppard, Vandenberg, Davis-Monthan, Whiteman, March, and Minot AFBs, and various others on leave and TDY from '67 to '86. Met my first love at Sheppard, my wife at Whiteman. Now I'm nowhere near any club, but my life has changed too much to go to one anyway, though many fond memories remain.

This whole topic is Sad, capital "S." "The Club" was my father's (and to a much lesser extent, my mom's, too) social center during his USAF career (1940 - 1960). I still remember weekend brunches and weekday dinners at various clubs all over the world...those were special treats when the kids got to go to The Club, too.

My career was on the E-side ('63 - '85), but the clubs meant a lot to me. A whole helluva lot of bid-niz went down in the Top 3 Lounge between 1700 - 2000 during the week, and there were great parties, good food, and passable entertainment at most places I was stationed, even if we had to make our own (I spent two-thirds of my career on radar sites, not AF bases).

I still pay my $7.00 a month in club dues, but I often wonder why the Hell I do. I live near Cannon AFB and stop in at the club (a "Consolidated" club) every so often for a beer. I get GREAT service at the bar, coz there's usually just me and perhaps one or, when it's really crowded, two other retirees in there. It's ALWAYS dead. Maybe it'll get better when the SpecOps guys move in later this year, but I kinda doubt it.

I'll continue to pay my club dues, but it's more out of a sense of tradition and a "thanks for the memories" sensibility than anything else. That and a hope that we just might get back to where we were. One can dream...

I KNOW I closed that "bold" tag...but it didn't take.

Sorry 'bout that.

For all the old-timers, what were garrison work hours like?

Nowadays, it seems that commanders are in competition with eachother to see who can keep their troops at work the longest, even when there's nothing to do.

And, it's not just "big Army" either. A friend of mine (and a BR of yours, BTW, John) is an officer in SF. He related a story to me of sending his men home early one day because there just wasn't anything productive left to do. He got talked to about it.

So, after a week of twelve hour days (say, from 0600-1800 or so... sometimes later), who wants to spend even MORE time away from the family on a Friday or Saturday night with the Army?

It's a common complaint among soldiers. Leadership says, "the Army's paying you to work." Yes, that's true. However, the Army gets its pound of flesh from every other year, twelve-month long deployments.

Cutting loose at 1400 because there's nothing left to do really isn't so bad.

And, it might just encourage guys to want to go out together on a Friday night at the O Club (or, in my case, the NCO Club).

I am a 1STLT out at Whiting Field right now, and our O-Club is dead. People will eat there because it is either that or Subway, but no one (besides for mandatory events) ever actually goes there for drinks or to hang out besides lunch. All us Lts go in to town to have a few drinks because everyone lives outside of the BOQ and there is always the fear of getting in trouble for whatever. Why go to base and go through the security checkpoints and have to worry about "being at work" when you can meet people out in town. However, the O-Club at TBS is still alive and strong, although from what I have recently heard, there are efforts being made in the name of PC to kill it though. The "Hawk" was usually a good place to hang out. Of course, we all had to live in the barracks there, so that limited our options frequently. People would spend time there and it didn't feel forced or contrived like so many other mandatory military social functions I have been to. I hope it has remained that way, and I wish our O-Club could become that way as well!

This is just more evidence of how docile, how pacified, how politically correct our officer corps has become.

It's just another sad milestone we've passed, on a politically correct pathway to an effeminate armed forces, nation and culture.

Instead of having the old breed define proper "regimental tone," you've allowed, yes, "allowed" is the right word, you've allowed the politically correct to define what is out of bounds.

Look at how fast the Navy capitulated after Tailhook. Now the Tailhook Association existed for how long, yet some politically correct feminist type, who never belonged in the ranks, files a report, which triggers seismic changes in our Navy.

And of course our officer corps stands still for this crap.

You guys had NO business standing still when the radical liberals declared war against the warrior ethos, and rammed women into the service academies.

You had no business allowing VMI to captured, no business allowing Citadel to be treated likewise.

You're standing still for it. And the O-Club, the place where off the record you guys should be devising successful strategy to forestall and undo this nonsense, stands empty.

Empty!

And part of it is because the officer corps is made up of careerists. The citizen soldier, who didn't have a stake in remaining in for decades, who didn't have much of a stake in constant promotion, he could speak his mind, he could call bullshit, bullshit.

But not you guys.

You have knock knees each time a fitness report is written.

I remember quite often having 'required' functions as a novice officer. Sometimes at the O-club, but as time went on we moved our functions to locations off-post so as to take a break from the miltary environment.

After a fashion, the O-club just seemed old-school and stoggy with respect to alternate clubbing environs supported by the local economy.

Traditions change, yes, but I'm afraid that some important traditions also become lost.

I spent my early 20's living near Patrick AFB and their O Club was right on the ocean. I always thought how cool it would be to get inside but alas, had no connections. I had to settle for dating NASA engineers.

Now that I'm married into the military, looks like the Officer's Club is a bygone thing anyway. I thought our politically correct world also opened them up so that they're not exclusive to officers -- is that not the case?

I shall withhold comment regarding Filipinos since my experience is not quite on par with yours (holding back vitriol).

(Noonan, you wanted a post, you got a post!)

"Alcohol deglamorization" programs are what really killed the clubs.

Even when I would do my IDT/UA and AT at Andrews AFB, the Club was dead. And this is the heart of the USAF in the Washington Capitol Area. Very sad and it is a huge loss, especially for those of us commissioned as IMAs. Frankly, it is hard to become a part of the military culture unless you are unit assigned- and with the Reserve structure for the 21st century that is not applicable as much as it once was.

Pretty well covers all the reasons. Only other one is the advent of two career couples and the whole ensuing child care mess. I think too the attitude has changed as far as having a social eviron with folks you work with. That's why overseas clubs lasted for a while-then the whole curfew crap and alcohol /fraternization risk thing kicked in there too.

Its sad. Really sad.

But I am liking that Dan guy a lot. Amen brother!

I remeber our O Club in Germany as the center of our social universe in the early 80s. I also remeber the evading the cops in Columbus, GA to make it back to the loving embrace of the FT Bennign MPs, who would drive your car full of young, drunk 2LTs to the BOQ and picked up your keys at the MP station in the AM.

I can remember the Graf O'Club with Margaret "Flame" LaRue in th eearly 80s...and the night at the O Club at FT Stewart in 1989 when she walked in on the arm of her husband...a young engineer captain. She got a big greeting!!!

I also remember sitting in that bar with a VMI grad named Wimpy Wimbush (I think class of 85 or 86) and drinking many a Coors Light and spit in dip cups.

I think the threat of the DUI just helped kill it as well as closing them to locals. And as an old infantryman, I will say the best bar in the Army back late 1970s was the Fiddlers Green at FT Knox. Absolutely outstanding. Honorable mention was the Blade and Wing in BOQ at FT Sill (I believe you had have only a single bar on your collar to be a member). And of course, the Foxhole at FT Benning.

I remember the deglam of booze and the measures that the bases all put into effect in order to curtail all drinking on base. It started before I joined in '83 and has continued to this day.

You have to admit, having the base police put white chalk marks on the tires of all cars parked at the O'club at Treasure Island and then stopping every car with a chalk mark on the tire driving off the base and forcing a field sobriety test on the driver was club killer. It was just a "random" stop and therefore quite legal...

I wouldn't dream of having a drink on a navy base today. Nowadays we all just meet at dives offbase and have a few before we head to our offbase homes. Only a complete moron drives back into a military zone/gate after having even a single beer. "smell of alcohol on the breath" is all it takes to stop you at the gate. That used to be a career killer (OK, still is for officers) but a surprising number get stopped every day. They get to stay in though until we've used them up. They don't get promoted but they also no longer get booted from the service. Neither is a good thing for the service.

They didn't get me but they got a lot of others.

I would like to get in touch with anyone who was familiar with the U. S. Naval Base Subic Bay Officers Club, i.e. COM (open), and in particular the junior officers bar on the top deck during the 1970's or earlier.

Bill Fogle
Senior Staff Engineer, Inflator Applications
Inflatable Restraint Systems Engineering
TRW AUTOMOTIVE
11202 East Germann Road
Mesa AZ 85212-8678

TEL: (480) 722-4182
FAX: (480) 722-6349
Email: bill.fogle@trw.com

For me, the club system has simply become less responsive to members, so who feels like paying extra each month to join an institution that doesn't really and truly consider you a member with a voice? AF O'Clubs aren't even required to have advisory councils, so if you can't convince the highest commanders to act, then you get what you get.

USAF Services made the choice to partner with (I say sell out to) a credit card company (now Chase) for ten years (current contract out till 2014). More and more, it's about what Chase wants ("is willing to deliver under the contract") and the lowest member's input is basically tossed aside by Chase CSRs when you call them.

Ramstein Air Base, for example: They managed to take a thriving golf course steakhouse, close it for two years of construction, basically reopen it looking like a fancy cafeteria room, with none of its previous character. Then they all wondered why no one came back.

I've all tried many times to let the club system know what I expect. Locally, such as easily decipherable calendars of events, instead of glossy, overmarketed 20-page disorganized brochures full of poster-like pages.

Today, for example, I have no idea what's on this weekend at Ramstein, without again looking through probably 120 snipplets, all non-chronological. And try doing that every weekend. Ridiculous, but Marketing has no intention of changing anything.

It's easier to just look for the AAFES movie schedule and skip the club system. Or go downtown where I know what's on, because it's easy enough to find on local off-base schedules!

So, I'm a idiot who remains a member here. But for how long still?