New Market Day 2007

I don't think you are the only corp of cadets to fix bayonets during parade. Better do some fact checking. I have a scar on the back of my head where my classmate accidently stabbed me during right shoulder arms on the parade grounds at West Point during our plebe year.

Mike Roark
USMA 1971

Still think Dixie would be more appropriate to honor the fallen 10 and their fellow warriors. Too bad PC has to take preference
over respect to them. If there must be a substitute, Shenandoah is a graet choice; Bonnie Blue Flag would even be better.

They do Bonnie Blue Flag as well...

I never remember hearing "Dixie," and that would take us back to 1985. I do prefer "Shenandoah"--I have never thought of Virginia as, "Way down yonder in the land of cotton."
I will see what I can dig up on "Dixie."

If I'm not mistaken, didn't Tech send their corps to Cuba for the Spanish-American War? Or was it just a group of guys who volunteered?

I do know (or at least was told by more than one Citadel Grad) that their cadets fired the opening salvo to the Civil War. Shots were fired on the Union supply ship "Star of the West" when it tried to run the Confederate blockade. To this day, Citadel annually awards its "Star of the West" medal to the cadet with the best marksmanship scores.

Since the Corps was fighing that day for the Confederacy it would seem only appropriate that the Corps of today would march under the anthem of the Confederacy to honor the fallen. We cannot change history, and to bow to political correctness is to deny the very values that our ancestors fought for.

And by the way, while I'm picking nits, what's with the policy that bars exchange students at the Institute from fixing their bayonets during parades? They are a part of the Corps during their stay at VMI, and it seems to me that they have as much right as any others to participate in a wonderful tradition. It is the celebration of our military history that builds strong esprit de corps. To set exchange students up as second class citizens within the Corps seems counter productive.

Marine6 Sends

Marine6 - exchange students can't fix bayonets? I do not remember hearing anything like that...

John,

The US Coast Guard Academy cadets drill with fixed bayonets; and while the USNA is technically a brigade of midshipmen, they too fix bayonets. http://www.oknapc.org/parade_rifle.htm

I don't have any physical scars to prove my CGA claim - I won't even say it's "seared into my memory" ala Kerry. I simply remember it being much easier for the drill instructors to notice your mistakes when you had a shiny bayonet to signal any extraneous rifle movement while marching.

Andy

i'm 13 years behind Mike Roark (#1 above), and we still fixed bayonets up on the Hudson for all parades (except for those with sabers).

..and they still had them on parade last fall when i went up for a football game.

..and we did have exchange cadets with fixed bayonets (they just had to get some intensive "how to" training when it came to marching)

PC be damned. Play Dixie.

We marched with bayonets fixed on M-1 rifles at the Trade School on the Severn when I was a midshipman. One of my plebes passed out and bayoneted a kid in front of him in the calf. Stoic knucklehead refused to fall out, didn't tell anyone else and it wasn't until we were marching off that one of the corpsmen noticed the blood streaming down the pants leg of his white uniform.

The medical folks were sure that it was us that had done it to him.

Like we'd stab somebody. When we had rubber hoses.

We were fixing bayonets back in '93 at USMA too. Technically, since the VMI corps was fighting on the side of the rebellious traitors... it might be more appropriate that they NOT be allowed to fix bayonets.

at least we're all on the same team these days.. ;-)

...and you are correct in that USMA never did fight as a corps of cadets, like yours did at New Market.

we were merely content with supplying most of the commanders for the majority of the other battles.

MajMike - you mean for both sides, correct?

Georgia Military Institute (Marietta, GA) cadets also fought as a unit in July 1864 against Sherman's campaign just northwest of Atlanta around Kennesaw. One of thier cannons resides in the Confederate cemetary as a monument.

Back in 92- 93 we all fixed bayonets to our M-14's at the Southeastern Hudson Institute of Technology - might have changed since then?

Also, what is now Florida State University fought the Battle of Natural Bridge, Florida in 1865. Saw the battle streamer on the Schools colors and all.

DanC

What a fine regiment of cadets. Personally, I think "Shenandoah" is one of the most moving pieces of music ever written...but my opinion is not without bias.

One question, which may be answered at your leisure, is-does VMI have a website which a civilian might visit? This would only be for my own general interest and assist with my beginning to comprehend some of the more technical aspects of what I believe to be a very fine site. Thank you for the video which inspired a feeling of pride in this Canadian.

Veritas et Fidelis Semper

Deborah, the answer is yes. You can go here for the VMI website.

Perhaps we need to add a link...John?

Bullnav,

Exchange students NOT allowed to fix bayonets indeed. I will admit that it's been a couple of years since I attended a VMI parade, but it was very deffinately the policy the last time I was there.

Don't get me wrong. In our Corps we are all about history and traditions. We spend a lot of time instilling in each Marine a love and respect for the history of our Corps because it is an essential part of turning an undisciplined civilian into the outstanding Marine of today. And isn't that exactly what VMI is also about? Isn't the purpose of the Rat Line to teach the new cadet that he, or she, is a part of something far greater than the individual?

We have a many who serve with the Marines who we welcome into our brotherhood. All of our medical personnel are from the Navy (Doctors, Dentists, and, most importantly our Corpsmen) and, believe me, we welcome them as an integral part of our Corps. The same with our Chaplains, who are also Naval officers. They wear our uniforms, they share our dangers, and we claim them as fellow Marines. And we do the same with exchange officers from not just the other servic3es, but also from other nations.

So, tell me, since none of the current Corps of Cadets served at New Market on the 15th of May 1864, isn't the marching with fixed bayonets an honor bestowed on the Corps, and not on individuals? And since it is a "Corps" honor, shouldn't it apply to anyone currently associated with the Corps. It's rather like the French Fourragere awarded to the Fifth Marine Regiment and the Sixth Marine Regiment by the government of France for heroic service in World War I. Every Marine (and Navy Doctor, Dentist Chaplain, and Corpsman) serving with those regiments at the time had the lifetime right to wear the fourragere as a part of his uniform. But since it was a unit honor, every Marine (and Navy Doctor, Dentist, Chaplain and Corpsman) currently assigned to those two regiments wears the fourragere while in uniform.

History and traditions are wonderful things and should not be mucked about with for any reason. New Marked is one of the signature moments in VMI history. Those cadets fought, and died, for a cause they believed in. And that action brought honor on the Institute.

There may be good reasons not to regularly use Dixie at most school functions. And there also may be good reasons not to display Confederate colors. But, on New Market Day it seems to deny history to ignore both the anthem, and the flag they died for.

The Institute has a significant record of equal opportunity and it should be proud of that fact. But I firmly believe that VMI should tell the world that on this one day of the year we are going to honor our history, and the members of the Corps who died on the field at New Market in an appropriate way. And that includes the flag, and the song they died for. If you cannot accept that historical fact, then perhaps you will not be comfortable here.

And, by the way, if reminders of the Confederate history of the Institute are so offensive, how is it that there is still a Jackson Arch, a Jackson quote, and a Jackson Monument still central parts of the Institute?

Marine6 Sends

As you can see, old grunts aren't great on technology. If it doesn't have a bayonet lug it's not worth having. I obviously forgot to run spell check.

Marine6 Sends

I'm not familiar with the policy. It would seem though, if the exchange cadets were marching in one of our parades, they would need to fix bayonets for no other reason than to adhere to the standards of uniformity?

Marine6 - I was trying to say that I never heard of that policy during my time at VMI ('85-'89). If that is, in fact, the policy, then I will say I agree wholeheartedly with your position.
As far as history goes, I simply like Shenandoah a whole lot more than Dixie. It also seems to fit a little better in the Shenandoah Valley. What you said does make sense...

Dear Bullnav: Thank you for posting the link to the VMI site. Please excuse this tardy response to your most kind undertaking, sir.

My thanks to all at OPFOR for allowing this civilian to post her few comments and questions. Enjoy your weekend.

Veritas et Fidelis Semper

Deborah, you are mightily welcome. Please, keep it up. That's why we are here.

BTW, I don't think of Canada as "up north." Here in Michigan, that has a different meaning (i.e., the U.P.). I think of Canada more as east and a little south...

I honestly don't see the honor in a group of cadet having fought for the Confederacy. While the gentlemen in gray were hardly fascists or thugs, they were not soldiers of the United States. They were rebels, traitors, and insurrectionists. They fought against the United States and could have been hung as traitors were it not for political necessities and Lincoln's wisdom.

Frankly, how are they different from British Loyalist soldiers, Johnny Walker Lindh, or Adam Gadahn?

Is it because they were Confederate cadets that the members of the Florida Military Seminary at Tallahassee, the predecessor of the Florida State College for Women, itself the Predecessor of Florida State University, is never recognized in these discussions as having been a very important part of the Battle of Natural Bridge, where-in there was some serious kicking of Yankee hinnie. So serious in fact that the Yankees fled like cowards and the reult was that Tallahasseee was the Only Conferate capital that was not captured by the north/ The other battle that the Yankees lost that prevented this was the battle of Olustee out east a tad from Live Oak.

Other units MARCH with bayonets already fixed. What this video does not show is how the Corps fixes them DURING the parade.

Foreign students ARE allowed to fix bayonets...or I should say, foreign students actually enrolled. If they are part of an exchange system, such as French cadets, they do not partake in any parades.

Oh and to all the West Pointers feeling a little inferior...try this on for size...you may have had the bulk of commanders in WWII...but who commanded them? hmmm?

I have understood that VMI cadets were the only student body to fight as a unit in war aside from two foreign military schools. In regards to the bayonet debage, I believe the key word in fixing bayonets is "authorized." Other schools may do it but it carries a different meaning. I was a US Army Drill Sergeant and remember a discussion about the VMI parade ceremony of fixing bayonets.
As for Dixie, I doubt many people know it was one of Abe Lincoln's favorite tunes.

VMI was not the only unit to fight in the civil war (War of Northern Aggrssion) as a corps of cadets - The Citadel fought a number of battles and proudly clams the honor firing the first shots of the civil war on Union Supply Ship - Star of the West.

The following is taken from the Citadel's web site - http://www3.citadel.edu/brief-history

Citadel - Civil War Period

Enrollment in The South Carolina Military Academy increased from thirty-four students in 1843 to two hundred ninety six in 1864. The $200 tuition in 1843 increased to $1,200 in 1864. When South Carolina seceded from the Union in December 1860, Major Robert Anderson moved his garrison of U.S. troops to Fort Sumter and requested reinforcements from the federal government. On January 9, 1861, Citadel cadets stationed on Morris Island fired on the U.S. steamer, the Star of the West, which failed to supply Fort Sumter with troops and supplies. This was the first overt act of the war.

On January 28, 1861, the Corps of the Cadets of The Arsenal Academy and The Citadel Academy were made part of the military organization of the state and were known collectively as the Battalion of State Cadets. The Arsenal and The Citadel continued to operate as military academies. However, classes were often disrupted when the governor called the cadets into military service. Mounting and manning heavy guns, guard duty and escorting prisoners were among the services performed by the cadets.

In December 1864, Governor Bonham ordered the Battalion of State Cadets to Tulifinny Creek to join a small Confederate force defending the Charleston and Savannah Railroad. On December 7 and 9, 1864, the cadets fought against Union forces, successfully defending the railroad line and forcing Union forces to withdraw. The cadets suffered eight casualties at Tulifinny Creek. The battalion was commended for its display of discipline and gallantry under fire and won the admiration of the troops who fought with them.

The Battalion of State Cadets earned nine battle streamers for its service in the war. On February 18, 1865, The Citadel ceased operation as a college when Union troops entered Charleston and occupied the site. The Arsenal was burned by Sherman’s troops and never reopened.

A proud history to be sure. Both VMI and Citadel hold important places in American history and still produce a number of great leaders.

Actually VMI is the only American institution (technically) allowed to fix bayonets. Although two other schools abroad claim this right. (École Polytechnique: battle of paris 1814, and the military acadamy mexico whose name i can not recall.) No other schools have faught as independent units.

The drum majors we dead on because band is the best damn company on the hill. I'm a corporal in band company this year. And that wooden fence in the background of the parade is now Third Barracks.

The drum majors we dead on because band is the best damn company on the hill. I'm a corporal in band company this year. And that wooden fence in the background of the parade is now Third Barracks. And to the playing "Dixie," that won't happen, one of my brother rats was put on confinement last year for playing it.

I'm not sure how VMI can claim to be the only cadet's to have fought as an independent unit. The VMI cadet battalion was under the direction of General Brekinridge. Is because it was deemed a battalion? The battery of Citadel Cadets that fired on the Star of the West on 1/09/1861 was commanded and manned exclsuivley by cadets. Obviously, the entire corps was not present at the egagement, but there were several other battles that the Corps of Cadets fought in, and in December of 1864 the Corps of Cadets fought in the battle of Tulifinny as a unit, suffering 8 casualites. Is the fixed bayonets rule an actual regulation, perhaps stated in FM 22-5, or is this a traditional that has been passed down for so long by VMI that everyone assumes it is official?

Citadel '93