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Vietnam: Fact vs Fiction
By Slab
This was posted on a military-related message board that I visit from time to time. Some very interesting facts in here - I'll post some highlights and put the rest below the jump.
- Vietnam veterans have a lower unemployment rate than the same non-vet age groups.
- Vietnam veterans' personal income exceeds that of our non-veteran age group by more than 18 percent.
- Vietnam Veterans are less likely to be in prison - only one-half of one percent of Vietnam Veterans have been jailed for crimes.
- As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511. During this Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country is: 13,853,027. By this census, FOUR OUT OF FIVE WHO CLAIM TO BE Vietnam vets are not.
- Myth: Common Belief is that most Vietnam veterans were drafted.
Fact: 2/3 of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. 2/3 of the men who served in World War II were drafted. Approximately 70% of those killed in Vietnam were volunteers.
Another very interesting article, by Dr. K.G. Sears, sheds even more light on the debt of gratitude we owe to our Vietnam veterans. They served with honor and distinction, and rarely received the recognition they were due. Thank you for your service.
Found here.
• 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the official Vietnam era from August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975.
• 2,709,918 Americans served in uniform in Vietnam
• Vietnam Veterans represented 9.7% of their generation.
• 240 men were awarded the Medal of Honor during the Vietnam War
• The first man to die in Vietnam was James Davis, in 1958. He was with the 509th Radio Research Station. Davis Station in Saigon was named for him.
• 58,148 were killed in Vietnam
• 75,000 were severely disabled
• 23,214 were 100% disabled
• 5,283 lost limbs
• 1,081 sustained multiple amputations
• Of those killed, 61% were younger than 21
• 11,465 of those killed were younger than 20 years old
• Of those killed, 17,539 were married
• Average age of men killed: 23.1 years
• Five men killed in Vietnam were only 16 years old.
• The oldest man killed was 62 years old.
• As of January 15, 2 004, there are 1,875 Americans still unaccounted for from the Vietnam War
• 97% of Vietnam Veterans were honorably discharged
• 91% of Vietnam Veterans say they are glad they served
• 74% say they would serve again, even knowing the outcome
• Vietnam veterans have a lower unemployment rate than the same non-vet age groups.
• Vietnam veterans' personal income exceeds that of our non-veteran age group by more than 18 percent.
• 87% of Americans hold Vietnam Veterans in high esteem.
• There is no difference in drug usage between Vietnam Veterans and non-Vietnam Veterans of the same age group (Source: Veterans Administration Study)
• Vietnam Veterans are less likely to be in prison - only one-half of one percent of Vietnam Veterans have been jailed for crimes.
• 85% of Vietnam Veterans made successful transitions to civilian life.
Interesting Census Stats and "Been There" Wanabees:
• 1,713,823 of those who served in Vietnam were still alive as of August, 1995 (census figures).
• During that same Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country was: 9,492,958.
• As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511. This is hard to believe, losing nearly 711,000 between '95 and '00. That's 390 per day. During this Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country is: 13,853,027. By this census, FOUR OUT OF FIVE who claim to be Vietnam vets are not. The Department of Defense Vietnam War Service Index officially provided by The War Library originally reported with errors that 2,709,918 U.S. military personnel as having served in-country. Corrections and confirmations to this errored index resulted in the addition of 358 U.S. military personnel confirmed to have served in Vietnam but not originally listed by the Department of Defense. (All names are currently on file and accessible 24/7/365).
• Isolated atrocities committed by American Soldiers produced torrents of outrage from anti-war critics and the news media while Communist atrocities were so common that they received hardly any media mention at all. The United States sought to minimize and prevent attacks on civilians while North Vietnam made attacks on civilians a centerpiece of its strategy. Americans who deliberately killed civilians received prison sentences while Communists who did so received commendations. From 1957 to 1973, the National Liberation Front assassinated 36,725 Vietnamese and abducted another 58,499. The death squads focused on leaders at the village level and on anyone who improved the lives of the peasants such as medical personnel, social workers, and school teachers. - Nixon Presidential Papers Common Myths Dispelled: Myth: Common Belief is that most Vietnam veterans were drafted. Fact: 2/3 of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. 2/3 of the men who served in World War II were drafted. Approximately 70% of those killed in Vietnam were volunteers.
• Myth: The media have reported that suicides among Vietnam veterans range from 50,000 to 100,000 - 6 to 11 times the non-Vietnam veteran population.
• Fact: Mortality studies show that 9,000 is a better estimate. "The CDC Vietnam Experience Study Mortality Assessment showed that during the first 5 years after discharge, deaths from suicide were 1.7 times more likely among Vietnam veterans than non-Vietnam veterans. After that initial post-service period, Vietnam veterans were no more likely to die from suicide than non-Vietnam veterans. In fact, after the 5-year post-service period, the rate of suicides is less in the Vietnam veterans' group.
• Myth: Common belief is that a disproportionate number of blacks were killed in the Vietnam War.
• Fact: 86% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasians, 12.5% were black, 1.2% were other races. Sociologists Charles C. Moskos and John Sibley Butler, in their recently published book "All That We Can Be," said they analyzed the claim that blacks were used like cannon fodder during Vietnam "and can report definitely that this charge is untrue. Black fatalities amounted to 12 percent of all Americans killed in Southeast Asia a figure proportional to the number of blacks in the U.S. population at the time and slightly lower than the proportion of blacks in the Army at the close of the war."
• Myth: Common belief is that the war was fought largely by the poor and uneducated.
• Fact: Servicemen who went to Vietnam from well-to-do areas had a slightly elevated risk of dying because they were more likely to be pilots or infantry officers. Vietnam Veterans were the best educated forces our nation had ever sent into combat. 79% had a high school education or better. Here are statistics from the Combat Area Casualty File (CACF) as of November 1993. The CACF is the basis for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial (The Wall): Average age of 58,148 killed in Vietnam was 23.11 years. (Although 58,169 names are in the Nov. 93 database, only 58,148 have both event date and birth date. Event date is used instead of declared dead date for some of those who were listed as missing in action)
Deaths Average Age
Total: 58,148 23.11 years
Enlisted: 50,274 22.37 years
Officers: 6,598 28.43 years
Warrants: 1,276 24.73 years
E1 525 20.34 years
11B MOS: 18,465 22.55 years
• Myth: The common belief is the average age of an infantryman fighting in Vietnam was 19.
• Fact: Assuming KIAs accurately represented age groups serving in Vietnam, the average age of an infantryman (MOS 11B) serving in Vietnam to be 19 years old is a myth, it is actually 22. None of the enlisted grades have an average age of less than 20. The average man who fought in World War II was 26 years of age.
• Myth: The Common belief is that the domino theory was proved false.
• Fact: The domino theory was accurate. The ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations) countries, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand stayed free of Communism because of the U.S. commitment to Vietnam. The Indonesians threw the Soviets out in 1966 because of America's commitment in Vietnam. Without that commitment, Communism would have swept all the way to the Malacca Straits that is south of Singapore and of great strategic importance to the free world. If you ask people who live in these countries that won the war in Vietnam, they have a different opinion from the American news media. The Vietnam War was the turning point for Communism.
• Myth: The common belief is that the fighting in Vietnam was not as intense as in World War II.
• Fact: The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year thanks to the mobility of the helicopter. One out of every 10 Americans who served in Vietnam was a casualty. 58,148 were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.7 million who served. Although the percent that died is similar to other wars, amputations or crippling wounds were 300 percent higher than in World War II ....75,000 Vietnam veterans are severely disabled. MEDEVAC helicopters flew nearly 500,000 missions. Over 900,000 patients were airlifted (nearly half were American). The average time lapse between wounding to hospitalization was less than one hour. As a result, less than one percent of all Americans wounded, who survived the first 24 hours, died. The helicopter provided unprecedented mobility. Without the helicopter it would have taken three times as many troops to secure the 800 mile border with Cambodia and Laos (the politicians thought the Geneva Conventions of 1954 and the Geneva Accords or 1962 would secure the border).
• Myth: Kim Phuc, the little nine year old Vietnamese girl running naked from the napalm strike near Trang Bang on 8 June 1972.....shown a million times on American television....was burned by Americans bombing Trang Bang.
• Fact: No American had involvement in this incident near Trang Bang that burned Phan Thi Kim Phuc. The planes doing the bombing near the village were VNAF (Vietnam Air Force) and were being flown by Vietnamese pilots in support of South Vietnamese troops on the ground. The Vietnamese pilot who dropped the napalm in error is currently living in the United States. Even the AP photographer, Nick Ut, who took the picture, was Vietnamese. The incident in the photo took place on the second day of a three day battle between the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) who occupied the village of Trang Bang and the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) who were trying to force the NVA out of the village. Recent reports in the news media that an American commander ordered the air strike that burned Kim Phuc are incorrect. There were no Americans involved in any capacity. "We (Americans) had nothing to do with controlling VNAF," according to Lieutenant General (Ret) James F. Hollingsworth, the Commanding General of TRAC at that time. Also, it has been incorrectly reported that two of Kim Phuc's brothers were killed in this incident. They were Kim's cousins not her brothers.
• Myth: The United States lost the war in Vietnam.
• Fact: The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. General Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California, Berkeley a major military defeat for the VC and NVA.
THE UNITED STATES DID NOT LOSE THE WAR IN VIETNAM, THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE DID. Read on........
The fall of Saigon happened 30 April 1975, two years AFTER the American military left Vietnam. The last American troops departed in their entirety 29 March 1973. How could we lose a war we had already stopped fighting? We fought to an agreed stalemate. The peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973. It called for release of all U.S. prisoners, withdrawal of U.S. forces, limitation of both sides' forces inside South Vietnam and a commitment to peaceful reunification. The 140,000 evacuees in April 1975 during the fall of Saigon consisted almost entirely of civilians and Vietnamese military, NOT American military running for their lives. There were almost twice as many casualties in Southeast Asia (primarily Cambodia) the first two years after the fall of Saigon in 1975 then there were during the ten years the U.S. was involved in Vietnam. Thanks for the perceived loss and the countless assassinations and torture visited upon Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians goes mainly to the American media and their undying support-by-misrepresentation of the anti-War movement in the United States. As with much of the Vietnam War, the news media misreported and misinterpreted the 1968 Tet Offensive. It was reported as an overwhelming success for the Communist forces and a decided defeat for the U.S. forces. Nothing could be further from the truth. Despite initial victories by the Communists forces, the Tet Offensive resulted in a major defeat of those forces. General Vo Nguyen Giap, the designer of the Tet Offensive, is considered by some as ranking with Wellington, Grant, Lee and MacArthur as a great commander. Still, militarily, the Tet Offensive was a total defeat of the Communist forces on all fronts. It resulted in the death of some 45,000 NVA troops and the complete, if not total destruction of the Viet Cong elements in South Vietnam. The Organization of the Viet Cong Units in the South never recovered. The Tet Offensive succeeded on only one front and that was the News front and the political arena. This was another example in the Vietnam War of an inaccuracy becoming the perceived truth. However, inaccurately reported, the News Media made the Tet Offensive famous.
Please give all credit and research to:
Capt. Marshal Hanson, U.S.N.R (Ret.)
Capt. Scott Beaton, Statistical Source
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Comments
Right on Bullnav, and unfortunately we are seeing it again in Iraq.
While it doesn't have much of the statistical data a good book telling the truth about Vietnam is "Unheralded Victory" by Mark W. Woodruff. US combat troops were almost completely gone from Vietnam in 1973. The South Vietnamese were doing a fine job defeating the North Vietnamese Army until the anti-war Democratic Congress that was elected in November 1974 cut off funding and assistance in 1975 that was our obligation under treaty to continue to be given to the South Vietnamese. Only after Congress over-road President Gerald Ford's veto of the bill ending support did the South Vietnamese military give up and run from the battle. Congress, Jane Fonda, John Kerry and others like them have the blood of over one million Vietnamese and two million Cambodian civilians on their hands.
Couple things to say:
1) Yes, it is true that when we withdrew in 1973, the GoV was in control of ~85% of South Vietnam, and that we had reason to believe that the GoV could hold on indefinitely given American non-military aid. In fact, after our withdrawal ARVN forces scored a number of victories against NVA forces and increased the percentage of land under their effective control. By '73, Phoenix had swept the VC from South Vietnam, and we were literally fighting only NVA.
2) However, we cannot say that we won the Vietnam War. Our stated goal in fighting the Vietnam War was maintaining an "independent, non-communist, South Vietnam". We failed to do so. In the end, the fact that we were unable for political reasons to continue supporting the GoV led to a rapidly spiraling situation that we eventually lost.
This was in large part due to the corruption of the GoV and the ARVN. They were unable to fend for themselves, even after the billions of dollars we had pumped into making them self-sufficient. This should teach us a few lessons:
1) Our goal in nation-building operations has to be to actually build a functioning stand-alone state apparatus. Lansdale's great counterfactual, the idea that if we had buttressed Diem instead of allowing his assasination we could have built a non-communist and strongly nationalist South Vietnam, is perhaps overly rosy but not necessarily worth dismissing.
2) Victory on the battlefield is only significant if it furthers policy goals. The fact that we whipped the VC didn't mean a damn thing in the end. By '75 the helicopters were leaving the embassy roof, and we'd lost.
In the end, the fact that we were unable for political reasons to continue supporting the GoV led to a rapidly spiraling situation that we eventually lost.
Not unable -- unwilling.
And when *I* left, we were winning.
The Veterans Administration Medical Centers have a continous parade of NON vets demanding treatment, free meals, etc. some of them are quite obnoxious about it.
one comes to mind that was posturing in the local tv news that the va would not replace his prosthetic leg which was a terrible mess. (held up for the camera to see naturally)
what he left out was that he lost the leg in a shoot out with the police while leaving a bank that he had just robbed. he was not a vet of any kind shape or form.
va can tell within seconds if a guy is legitimate.
c
I don't doubt it BillT, and thanks for your service. I think Tet '68 is really the turning point in our favor. After the initial shock, Phoenix tallies jump because the cadres had to come out into the open, and from then on the overall trend it towards increasing GoV control of the South.
Whether it was political inability or political unwillingness is not really a hugely important question. We didn't support the GoV to the degree that we needed to.
Frankly though, the GoV was rotten. The real mistake was far earlier, when we allowed the coup against Diem. The way I see it, that's when we lost the political war, even though we went on a decade later to win the military war.
Was in the Da Nang area with the 1st MAW for almost a year, and believe we were there for a good reason. Still do.
My good wife, God bless her, says we 'lost' that one. Still doesn't understand that we did not lose.........we quit, thanks to the lily livered politicians and celebrities.
Some of them are still with us today. Pity.
Airborne.
I saw a CSPAN show this weekend about Bernard Falls, a Vietnam era author. One of the guests was head of NBC in Vietnam. He said that ALL atrocities were committed ONLY by Americans and that the VC and NVA were absent of guilt.
Is it any wonder that people who get their news from the MSM are misinformed? This guy has perpetrated this lie for 40 years and never gets called on it. A pox on NBC.
The Vietnam War was a COLLOSSAL WASTE -----
for the NORTH VIETNAMESE!
They fought to keep the USA and all us "greedy hegemonizing capiatlists" out - from 1965 till the Dems in Cingress pulled the plug on ur South Vietnamese allies and let thw North VIOLATE the Parios treay and invade the south.
NOW.... the Vietnamese are BEGGING for USa INVESTMENT!
They could have had this investment since 1965 - and not had 3.5 MILLION od their own citizens die for a socialist chimera!
If they had not waged in idiotic war against the USa dn the South. then the Vietnamese would TODAY be as well-off as the South Koreans instead of as poor as the North Koreans.
The north vietnamese marxists are guilty of MONUMENTAL genocidal IDIOCY.
As are the Dem doves who haned the marxist the whole of vietnam on a silver platter.
BTW: it's the same crowd now: Kerry Kennedy et al.
I won't dispute your figures which are probably correct.
Technicaly the United States perhaps did not lose the war. That the war was lost is not disputable though.
Was the war necessary? Did the United States understand Vietnam? etc. etc.
In my own blog I am trying to put down my feelings at the time. They changed drastically over the ten years I was associated with Vietnam. I am not criticizing the military except in certain areas.
Free fire zones!
Use of napalm!
Use of Agent orange!
Body count!
The United States army fight total war with a complete disregard for what they term collateral damage. Iraq as well as Afghanistan.
My main point which I apply to Vietnam as well as Iraq and Afghanistan is that the American 'cure' is often more fatal than the original sickness.
The communists were bad for Vietnam, catastrophic probably, although mass tourism and capitalism seem to be almost as destructive.
That the United States acted in some form of global strategy I can understand if I often disagree with it. That the United State's way of life is better for everybody I totally disagree. That one must be a victim of American peace keeping to enjoy the benefits of their so caled way of life I find strange.
vnrozier,
You state: "The United States army fight total war with a complete disregard for what they term collateral damage. Iraq as well as Afghanistan."
You don't appear to understand the terms "total war" or "collateral damage".
Total war means that a nation's resources are completely committed towards fighting a war. Hardly the case in any of our wars since WWII.
Collateral damage means any damage aside from the intended damage. Could be sympathetic explosions from ammunition stored near by, a building or, yes, civilian casualties.
We have avoided causing not only civilian casualties, but damage to archeological sites, mosques, hospitals, schools and all other civilian structures. Our Air Force "targeteers" decide on the type of weapons used, the angle of attack and the direction of attack for each planned aim point in order to reduce the likelihood of unintended damage. Our Soldiers and Marines have specific Rules of Engagement and have risked their lives to avoid harming civilians.
BTW "mass tourism and capitalism" haven't killed millions of people in SE Asia or anywhere else. Our opponents did and would likely have done so whether or not we had tried to intervene.
Thanks for a great set of facts. Linked to it from Travis Monitor blog.
The United States army fight total war with a complete disregard for what they term collateral damage. Iraq as well as Afghanistan.
My main point which I apply to Vietnam as well as Iraq and Afghanistan is that the American 'cure' is often more fatal than the original sickness."
I guess this idiot felt he could respond to the post without actualyl reading it. These myths are what anti-Americans
"As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511. During this Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country is: 13,853,027. By this census, FOUR OUT OF FIVE WHO CLAIM TO BE Vietnam vets are not."
By my calculations surely the real number of false claimants of service is fourteen out of fifteen, this beggars belief!
My cousin Tom served with the Royal Marines during the Falklands and met many years later three men in a pub who claimed not only to have been there, but were in his Regiment!
He was not a happy bunny.
Many individuals will probably find offense with my comments, but I hate it when a single half truths are used to support a belief or theory as fact.
I have seen this study posted on numerous sites. And while most of the data seems to hold up to review, there are a few that I contend are misleading and wrong.
1. The fact related to suicides. I contend the CDC study was flawed and that using it as a referance to the stated assumptions are flawed. The CDC study was limited to data collection as to cause of death as reported on death certificates. The data sampling was rather small and there has not been any additional studies to confirm the conclusions of the oringial study. I contend it is not possible to locate any data-reporting base that could determine if deaths by auto, falls, drowning, drug over-dose, alcoholic disease, death by police, hunting “accidents”, “accidental” over dose were in fact deaths not by suicide. I also, contend until this data can be determined, one should not make flawed conclusions.
I also, have an issue with the statement that it is a myth that the United States lost the war. Anyone that has attended military combat school should recall that a war is not won by killing all the enemy, winning all the battles, "winning the hearts and minds of the people". War is won when you destroy the enemy's willingness to continue to fight. The American public last the war by losing the willingness to continue to fight.
Also, the issue of age. I wonder how average age was determined. Was age determined at the time the serviceman entered the combat zone or was it determined by the age at the time they re-entered the United States. Also, I my intelligence is offended by using the an single military job classification code as a represenation of all branches of services and all miliatry job classification personal in combat. Many transport, supply, construction, medic/corpsman, radio operators, and etc. were also in combat.
i like this it is kool
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Great information. I was not aware of most of those statistics, but they fly in the face of what is generally accepted as fact about the war.
I hope I get to it this year (I am working my way through The Ottoman Centuries by Lord Kinross), but I have H.R McMaster's Dereliction of Duty and I am looking forward to reading it. I expect it has a great deal on why we ended up where we did. Clearly we did not lose Viet Nam in a purely military sense. We lost it in the media and in political backrooms whose members only saw it as a stepping stone to the total power they craved.