The Air Force's Tripoli

they dont have much and hey guess what? that's because the air force's sole job is to backup the fighting men on the ground tankers, infantry, artillery etc. you can't capture and hold territory when your flying over the guys who are doing the fighting with your hands on your cocks, I mean joysticks. whatever.

Au contraire, sugar bear. The Doolittle Raid! And how about No. 1 Air Commando, from the China-Burma-India theater, one of the most visionary and successful air components ever? How about the fact that the USAF has never been turned away from a target by enemy action?

Doolittle! Duh! Made me want to wrap Tuskegee in the same packaging, but that was a different type of heroics...I suppose.

But, devil's advocate. We weren't our own force back then, Doolittle and his raiders belonged to the Army.

And I'll pretend you didn't call me Sugar Bear, Sir :)

You really mean Meuse-Argonne, not The Somme.

As for the air force (I'll be nice and include the Army Air Force) you could include Eddie Rickenbacker, the 1944 air campaign over France and Germany, the air war over Korea,, the air ops of Operation Desert Storm, and Operation Enduring Freedom.

Oh, and the Space Race in the 50's and 60's.

Jason B

Don't forget the Berlin Airlift.

We can't ignore the pre-independent history of the air force, it is a legitimate part of Air Force history. Plus most of the great air battles took place before the USAF was spun off.

The Yamamoto shoot down.

The role of AF combat controllers in the Afghanistan campaign 01-02.

Don't forget Claire Chennault and the three AVG squadrons. Not official AF, but a lot of them started there and signed back up later.

Curtis "Bombs Away" Lemay.

Before Hiroshima and Nagasaki, B-29s and specially designed purpose-specific napalm bombs were used to destroy more than 50% of 19 Japanese cities.

Lemay found a loophole in Japanese air defenses that involved an inability to cover a certain altitude layer. The first raid to Tokyo proved the theory.

The first of this campaign was done to Tokyo, when more than 300 B-29s ignited the entire city on fire, an act which when combined with the prevailing winds from the China coast, created an 1800 degree F downdraft that not only created a manmade meteorological event, there were eyewitness reports of fleeing people simply catching fire like matchsticks.

The only reason that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen for the atomic bombs is really because there were no major cities left in the pristine.

The napalm did far more damage per square mile than either atomic bomb.

Japan was using a different manufacturing model in which heads of households would report to factories and be issued small quantities of parts to be taken home and assembled -- often by everyone in the family, children inclusive -- as piecemeal work.

That fact alone made the "civilians" part of the Japanese war machine and not the oft-mentioned "collateral damage" of air war.

My father was on Okinawa, awaiting the first wave of the Japanese beach invasion that never happened due to the success of the air war. He was one of the "colored troops" that would have surely been all but wiped out in a Normandy-styled beach invasion of Japan, where the Japanese propaganda machine had already thoroughly indoctrinated the people that the colored troops were coming to EAT THEM. Kid. you. not.

I wouldn't be here if Curtis Lemay hadn't been there.

Seems of late the USAF fights battles one small group at a time.

Bernard F. Fisher, was a member of the 1st Air Commando Squadron located at Pleiku Air Base, South Vietnam. On March 10, 1966, he led a two-ship of skyraiders to the A Shau Valley in support of friendly troops in contact with the enemy.

A total of six "Spads" were striking numerous emplacements when the A-1 piloted by Major Wayne "Jump" Myers was hit and forced to crash-land into the A Shau. Myers bellied in on the 2,500-foot runway and took cover behind an embankment on the edge of the strip while Major Fisher directed the rescue effort.

Since the closest helicopter was 30 minutes away and the enemy was only 200 yards from Myers, Fisher quickly decided to land his two-seat A-1E on the strip and pick up his friend. Under the cover provided by the other A-1s, he landed in the valley, taxied to Myer's position, and loaded the downed airman into the empty seat. Dodging shell holes and debris on the steel planked runway, Major Fisher took off safely despite many hits on his aircraft by small arms fire.

Major Fisher returned to the United States, and, on 19 January 1967, he was awarded the Medal of Honor by President Lyndon B. Johnson.

One of many heros, this one recongnized for his efforts.

I ask folks -what is the prettist sound in the world? Rain on a lazy summer day?
A newborn baby crying?

Or is it the sound of:

F4s hitting the wire while Gomers are inbound on your position?
An A-10 rolling out hot on the tank column heading toward you?
An AC130 running a racetrack overhead when you hit the wall and hadji has you out numbered 10 to 1?

As for me, it is that little 'snick' noise the retarders make on a pair of snakeyes as they come off the rail and just before they impact on the horde of heathens sitting in the underbrush just outside the wire.

Well, there was that little affair over Hanoi a few years back that drove the commies back to the "peace table". It of course wasn't an Air Force fight alone, but I'm betting that the part about having B-52 after B-52 "cell" over your capitol dropping thousands of Made in America "greeting cards" had some small "impact" on the negotiation process.

And then there was the first part of OEF where the bombers were being spotted by the numerically few SOF forces. They brought to an abrupt end any fixed fortifications or set piece armies. And then there was the first part of OIF where in the northern part of the country the bombers were being spotted by the numerically few SOF forces.. And by golly, there too we brought an end to any fixed fortifications (anybody remember "the Green Line"?) and set piece armies...

We pretty much proved that if we can keep the bomber over the frontline without being driven off or shot down we can own ANYBODY.

Former Buff crewdog

The Schweinfurt and Regensburg raids, along with the Ploesti attack, come to mind. The 1943 bombing offensive against Germany was very, very costly....but the 8th AF kept pounding.

I would let the Air Force claim any actions taking when they where the Army Air Corp. After all they are th youngest branch and we need to look after our little brothers and sisters. But anyways, I give the Air Force major credit for their daylight raids into Germany that took balls of steel to stare death in the face like that on a daily basis.

I'm an old groundpounder, but I can think of several proud USAF/USAAF banners to hang on your guidon.

The Big Week bombing campaign in WW2
Ploesti Oil refinery raids.
New Guinuea, 1942
Rolling Thunder
D-Day air drops.

P.S.
"The Army has Saratoga, Gettysburg, San Juan Hill, Somme, Overlord..." Hey don't forget Ia Drang or Mogadishu.

Go Army or go home

How about the 8th Air Force and daylight precision bombing all over Nazi occupied Europe during WWII?

How about Operation El Dorado Canyon?

Keep in mind also that out of the 24 x F-111Fs we launched from RAF Lakenheath to start the 14-hour mission, one aircraft failed to return--Karma-52.

When Karma-52 was lost in the Gulf of Sidra during the raid, no-one is sure what happened to the jet. A fireball was reported in the sky and it has been presumed that it was struck by a SAM and, due to their low-level flight, the ejection mechanism never had a chance to fully deploy.

However, the almost perfect remains of the pilot, Major Fernando Ribas-Dominicci, were returned 3 years later by the Libyan government after calls by the Pope.

But what happened to the backseat WSO, Air Force Captain Paul Lorence? The Libyans deny any knowledge (although they proudly display F-111 wreckage and 2 flight suits in a government building) and the case has been seemingly dropped by the US government.

Patrick

Give me a break! While the US Army took two years to break into Europe- the Air Force was flying WITHOUT FIGHTER COVER to Berlin and losing 200 men each mission. Ever heard of the Memphis Belle? Who do you think was dropping air supplies to the men at Bastogne? Or bringing troops into South Korea? Or flying ground support missions at Khe Sanh? Who was manning the Strategic Air Command bombers 24 hours a day during the Cold War? Desert Storm? Bombing the Taliban?!

LtCol. Patrick brings up a GREAT point. As much as we memorialize our POW/MIA's as a whole, not much is said about Capt. Lawrence or, for that matter, Navy CAPT Mike Speicher (a TRAGIC story if there ever was one and a COMPLETE embarassment to the USA as far as its post-Vietnam treatment of its POW/MIA's).

Never fucking forget!!!

I'm never one for excuses, and I do think this is an interesting discussion, but isn't it a little tough comparing three services that have been around since the birth of our country and one that is barely pushing a century? The AF could never compete with the long proud traditions of the Army, Navy, and Marines. We are based on newer technology, but still instruments of war. Sorry DG, but the new stuff is expensive. Life's too short to be bitter bro, and we're on the same side remember?

Are we including dropping the Bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Horrific, but ended the war in the Pacific and saved many from all services... I'm sure more than we could ever know. Would not have been possible without a bomber.

I'm confused by your choices...a service's finest hour, or a battle where they got their asses handed to them? Chosin...hello? I know they can be one and the same battle. Even discounting all the achievements of the USAF's Mother Service, the Army Air Corps, don't forget MiG Alley, Cuban Missile Crisis U-2 flights, the Linebacker Ops, Operation Bolo, every single Jolly Green and Sandy op behind enemy lines...not every military achievement involves capturing dirt.

What has the USAF done for us lately?

The 55th Wing.

I know this can't be a monument, however, on 9/11, in the late afternoon, my son (aged 14) asked why a plane was flying overhead. It was a chilling question. My thoughts were...it it them?....our world is different and will never be the same....the plane was our guardian, keeping us safe...and, in that moment, I thanked God for the plane and felt a moment of peace. That will always be my monument to our wonderful airforce.

Geez! What's with the truncated Navy list, SugarBear (if he can say it, so can I!)?
How about the USS Constitution's capture of HMS Guerriere?
The USS United States' capture uf the Macedonian?
The Mexican American War with the Vera Cruz landing (riverine operations)?
The Battle of Manila Bay (the anniversary was yesterday!) "You may fire when ready, Mr. Gridley."?
WWII needs it's own post, Coral Sea, The Solomons, Gaudacanal, Leyte Gulf!
The Battle of Inchon.

I'll stop now. I have to go to work anyway.
Can't help you with the AirForce stuff.....I'm a Navy girl.

Oh, I know Bull Nav would certainly appreciate that Maggie :)

Jimbo...fair enough. I got enough of that Army business at VMI, thank you very much.

Hiroshima and Nag...mmmmm, don't think so. Clear skies for those boys, as I understand it. Historically significant, sure. But heroic to the point where it belongs in the same category as Iwo Jima? Bit of a stretch.

Hiroshima
Nagasaki
Dresden
Tuskegee Airmen

They should be proud of the work they do, even if the airplane has to be overweigh on paper before it leaves the ground

The Air Force types can work out their own list, but I'd vote for the raid on Ploesti.

But any list of historic USN engagements that doesn't include the Battle off Samar, 25 Oct 1944, is hopelessly incomplete. The heroics of those destroyermen and aviators against a vastly superior Japanese force puts it at the top of the list.

How about asking any grunt in Afghanistan, Iraq any place else when they are up to their eyeballs in sh*t and those planes come in to bail them out. Or that Specter stays overhead providing cover fire! Or that MH-60 or H-53 lifts them out of hell!
Lets see, 1st gulf war, one of the best air wars ever.
As someone else mentioned the Cold War.
I notice that it is the Air Force that now flies all the survelliance missions along the Chinese coast now. The Air Force would never allow a spy plane to be captured intact under any situation.

Disgruntled Grunt,

Name any battle of WWII- 80,000 airmen died in it. How about the 8th AF campaign over Germany?

Fast forward to "Nam. The Hanoi Hilton was populated by airman. Gee I wonder why that happened, they weren't holding ground. Who supplied all the shock & awe over Iraq that even enabled the ground invasion. How does the army/marines get around in Afghanistan- helos..,..

Ever read about the Battle Of Midway? Naval Aviator show (I know they weren't AF but we avaitors & pilots gotta stick together)

Disgruntled Grunt, you ain't disgruntled. You just have poor eyesight and can't make the cut for pilot...

b2

Here's a few more USAAF/USAF engagements for consideration:

Battle of the Bismarck Sea, March 1943. Supported by other USAAF and RAAF units, a couple of B-25/A-20 squadrons wipe out a Japanese division.

Raid on Rabaul, Nov. 1943. 5th AF pounds Rabaul. Navy comes back a few days later and bounces the rocks around. Rabaul, "the Gibraltar of the Pacific", is effectively out of the fight. Rabaul, incidentally, produced more USAAF MoH than any other target except Ploesti.

In SEA, Operations Steel Tiger and Commando Hunt substantially slowed the NVA dash down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Of the many aircrews lost over that AO, few ever showed up on POW lists. BTW, if you want desperate lost battles, look up Lima Site 85.

I might point out that the first thing most ground units in Afghanistan do when they come under fire is call in an air strike. Most ground engagements in Afghanistan end with an airstrike. That's what the Air Force is doing right now. The Air Force also decisively ends many a ground engagement in Iraq with a smart bomb or gunship fire.

In both Iraq wars, the Air Force acted as flying artillery which chewed up the main Iraqi forces before they could put fire on our ground forces, who advanced past smoking Iraqi armor. The Air Force is so good at its job that our ground forces don't even consider an enemy air threat when they go to war. The Iraqi air force was so scared of the USAF they either holed up in their hangars thinking they'd be safe there (they weren't), defected in their jets to Iran, or buried their jets. That's what you call intimidation.

The bombing campaign over Europe in WWII is probably the Air Force's Iwo Jima. Only a fraction of the aircrews made it through 25 missions to go home. The 8th Air Force basically created an entire air force on the fly and had to develop its tactics as it built up its force.

The 8th suffered 47,000 casualties, 26,000 of which were deaths. That's half the casualties of the army air force during WWII. That was more casualties than the Marine Corps suffered in WWII, who suffered 19,058 killed.

If you narrow casualties down to those incurred directly from combat, the ratio of killed to wounded is something like 4 to 1, the reciprocal of the casualty ratio of ground combat forces, who suffered about one dead for every four wounded. Basically, if you got hit on the ground, you were probably going to live. If you got hit in the air, you were probably going to die.

In the Pacific theater, the limiting factor for advances was the range of air cover, about 250 miles. All the invasions were done in 250 mile or less hops so that our air assets could chew up the enemy and stop them from reconfiguring their forces.

Of course, the Army Air Force stopped Japan dead in its tracks with two atom bombs. That made the invasion of Japan unnecessary, an invasion that MacArthur predicted would produce over a hundred thousand casualties in the first four months of the first invasion of Kyushu, with more to come.

Incidentally, the Japanese routinely killed the B-29 crews they shot down. Sometimes they bayonetted them in public. Some were sent to hospitals where they were vivisected by Japanese doctors for surgery practice.

As for Vietnam, of the 833 F-105s built, 382 were lost in combat in Vietnam, 46%, most of them in deep strikes over the North. If you got shot down over Laos, you just didn't come back. The locals killed you on the spot, perhaps after skinning you first.

I believe the Air Force doesn't get as much publicity as the other services for its contributions because the air war is hard to understand, unlike the ground war which any kid watching the History Channel can understand. It's difficult to explain a dogfight to non-flyers because it requires a certain amount of technical knowledge that's difficult to acquire without doing it. Also, what the Air Force does is not very photogenic. You can't capture a dogfight in a single photo.

However, it's foolish to think the Air Force is not contributing anything because you can't see what they're doing. You can't see what's happenning above you at 30,000 feet or in outer space (ie satellites) nor over the horizon.

You can tell the Air Force is doing good things because of all the enemy jets that never fly over your heads nor drop bombs in your foxholes. Woe be unto any enemy artillery batteries that are lucky enough to get within range of our grunts. They will soon be shaking hands with Mr. Cluster Bomb and all his little friends.

The fact is that the whole world lives under an American sky. There is no place on Earth we can not reach. That gives our enemies a lot to think about and nips many bad things in the bud before they can happen. So if you think the USAF isn't contributing to the war effort, think about how bad it would be if the enemy had our air force.