After lurking around the blogosphere, reading, commenting, and occasionally emailing authors, I am now part of this great communications platform. My Brother Rat, LTCOL P, sent me an invite and John was kind enough to allow me a forum here. I will try to stay focused on Navy stuff, but I may digress (ever so slightly) into hunting, shooting, or perhaps NASCAR. Enjoy. Comment. I have thick skin.
Anyway…
I guess that too many Navy folks on IA assignments have not been following the rules when it comes to wearing the ACU, which Navy personnel are allowed to wear when attached to an Army unit. If that was not the case, then this NAVADMIN guidance would not have come out, guidelines which explains what you can and can’t wear on your (N)Army uniform. Essentially this means that you can’t wear your warfare pin on the Army uniform, nor can you wear any of your patches from a past unit. Only what the Army permits can go onto the uniform.
If we are going to be in the Navy, then we should wear Navy uniforms. If in combat, this means the DCU or the BDU. If embedded with an Army unit, the Navy folks should still wear the Navy uniform because THEY ARE IN THE NAVY. There is a certain pride that comes with each of the service’s uniforms (yes, even the Air Force blue uniform) and once you take that away, you are taking away a part of the individual’s motivation. I did not join the (N)Army, I joined the Navy and I have always worn Navy uniforms. Do the Marines wear Army uniforms when they are working with Army folks? No.
Admittedly, the DCU is somewhat outdated and the ACU is more functional. Hell, it was designed to be functional in the current combat environment. Perhaps a compromise could be reached in which the Navy folks can personalize their ACU’s with the proper insignia (i.e., US NAVY, warfare qualification pins, etc.). Yeah, I know we are all supposed to be “joint” and all but we are still separate services, with our own traditions and customs. The uniform should reflect that uniqueness.
Well, it begs the question of what FMF corpsman are wearing.
OTOH, I bet it’s funny watching all the army people mistake a crow for a colonel.
Are you a surface warfare officer? Just wondering given that there are other subjects of greater importance…
Or say… wear what Naval Infantry wears right now… Oh yeah, that’s the Marine Corps. The Navy raised a company of Naval Infantry a looong time ago, but seems to forget this fact. For that matter, why not have Marine VBSS teams on surface ships? Didn’t the Marine Corps originally fill this job? Of course we would then have to increase the Marine Corp’s size again…
They’d better kill me if they think I wouldn’t wear my aircrew wings or my US Navy insignia…
So much for going back and joining one of the OGUs (Old-Guy-Units) for a tour of IA.
Andy – the FMF wear the Marine digital uniform. Which they should, since they are a fully integrated part of the unit to which they are assigned. Plus, that is the way they have always done it.
Seg – no, I am not a SWO. I am a Submariner. Your comment is exactly why I posted on this subject. Why do we have a NAVADMIN out on uniforms when there are far more important subjects for Navy staffs to be spending their time on?
Yet another reason why every service going to their own battledress uniform was a STUPID idea. Not only does it cost more money for every service branch to have yet another separate uniform (I’m all for service-oriented dress uniforms), but in this era of jointness nobody knows what the hell to wear anymore. I’ve seen Navy wearing DCU’s, SOFMOD DCU’s (basically taking the front pockets of the blouse and sewing them on the shoulders), ACU’s (with Navy pin-on warfare badges), ACU’s (in which sailors will sew the nametapes and warfare badges to the uniform), etc.
The services should have adopted ONE BATTLEDRESS uniform to replace the BDU/DCU. For each service to have their own is ridiculous and a waste of money which, in this era, is truly precious as gold.
Joel – could not have said it better myself. My civilian job is product design for a very large manfuacturing company. This idea over the last couple of years of developing a different battledress uniform for each service just blows me away from a fiscal standpoint. Think about the waste involved everytime you spend man-hours developing a new uniform, sending it out for competitive bids, and then tooling it up. Look at the amount of time spent developing this new Navy digital uniform we are supposed to be going to next year. I am with you 100%.
I am in an Army unit with an attached Navy guy. I have alwyas thought it weird that they wore the ACU albeit with US Navy on the uniform and the correct rank. They wear their unit patch like we would, but then they wear the patch of the assigned unit on the right shoulder were we wear the combat patch.
In our case that results in the Navy guy wearing a patch on his right shoulder that will never be worn the way we wear patches. (Does that make sense?) I agree they should be in DCU’s or FMF MARPAT.
Also note that the Army does not wear it’s pin on stuff in theatre.
In garrison, on post, or even “inside the wire” by all means the Navy should wear the Navy uniform.
But when playing army with the Army or Marines in a situation where one is highly likely to get shot at, it is generally wise for everyone to dress the same thereby avoiding the role of standout target.
“even the Air Force blue uniform”
Your sarcasm is not appreciated.
Just remember those blue suiters when you need air support — or an air evac to some hospital.
Andy B., JimPv, and any other AF folks – I must offer my deepest (and I do mean deep; I am, after all a submariner) and most humblest apologies to any of our Air Force brethern who may have taken offense at my thinly veiled assault on the fine blue color of the Air Force uniform. I appear to have struck a nerve.
Lawrence – I agree we don’t want to do anything that could get someone mistaken for a badguy. On the Navy DCU we have the sew on warfare insignia. The Navy warfare insignia have associated with them a deep sense of pride, and they take months or sometimes years to earn. It is a something that sets us apart, just as each service has something that sets it apart. We don’t wear patches on the sleeves for instance.
Why so much interest in different uniforms and who can wear what at different times in different units? Because each Service has pride in their own unique uniforms! The AF may be the butt of uniform jokes but only because traditionally they look sloppy in uniforms. The Navy is the butt of jokes, the Marines are butts of jokes and the Army too. So what? If you can’t take some inter-Service ribbing, get out and sell shoes. As a Marine, I don’t want to look the same as the army or navy in combat. I want the ‘Muj to shit himself when he knows the Marines and their co-uniformed corpsmen are patrolling through town. I don’t want one Service either. The tension and in-fighting between Services is frustrating and resource-wasting certainly but also healthy. While I would not turn away an AF jet dropping bombs on the enemy, I would prefer a Marine because I know all Marine pilots have gone through TBS and know what I am thinking on the ground. Why don’t we all maintain our pride in our own Services, keep making fun of each other, waste money on uniforms and kill enough muslims to win this war?
Chris, it’s resource wasting and that’s the key. I love Marines and respect the shit out of them… this is one decision they made that I think they f-ed up. Every service should have the SAME battle dress uniform. It makes sense fiscally and tactically. Esprit is a good thing, but has its limits. This is an example of it being taken to the ridiculous extreme.
And we can never kill enough Muslims to win this war. Staying in that mindset is why we will ultimately lose. Kinetic operations are a key component. But, until we realize that this is a war of ideas, not of bullets, the closer we’ll be to victory. In a war of attrition (which is what THEY want and what WE’RE being dragged into), a progressive democracy that follows rule of law CANNOT win against a fanatical fundamentalist ideology that has the reproductive rate of a cockroach and possesses about as much value for life.
As a former squid now serving in Army National Guard, I wear my SWO PIN with pride on both my ACU and Class A. AR 670-1 section 29-13 addresses badges authorized for wear on Army uniforms and states “…The following badges are authorized for wear on the Army uniform.
a. Military badges awarded by the Department of Army, U.S. Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard, and the Director of
Civilian Marksmanship. (See para g, below, for additional information.)
So if I can wear a SWO pin as an Army officer, I don’t see why you can’t. Of course you are bound by Navy regs, not AR 670-1. Just my $.02.
On even a more odd note, I used to have a recruiter that wore enlisted dolphins from when he was on a Diesel sub.
Joel – I agree with the fiscal argument for wearing one uniform but ultimately, Services perform well in extremely dangerous and physically/mentally fatiguing environments based purely on morale, esprit de corps, cohesion etc…whatever you want to call it. I don’t agree with your argument that same uniforms will reduce fratricide. The ‘Muj does not wear a uniform, only when he is posing as an Iraqi cop or soldier. Only disciplined geometries of fire, planning and coordination prevents fratricide. My vehicles in Iraq were the same color and design as army vehicles, yet they shot at us several times. So did some Marine units. As for killing muslims, unfortunately you feel we can negotiate with fundamentalists or prevent their creation within the muslim community. I disagree. We did not create muslim extremists, they existed long before the US was a country, we just happen to be a convenient target to pass blame upon for the inherent failings of islam to come into the 21st century. Once an extremist, always an extremist, until we send him on his quest for 72 raisins.
Interesting discussion…
I was taught that rule 1 in armed conflict is to not stand out – don’t be the guy with the unusual weapon or different uniform. It’s just guaranteed to get you shot (at) first.
Of course, sir, if you want to wear DCUs in an all ACU formation in combat, go right ahead – but I’d prefer not to be standing next to you when you do.
Ditto for the guy who wants to wear his shiny wings of gold in a low-observable environment.
The FMF Marpat is probably close enough to the ACU to be indistinguishable in that environment.
One of my childhood buddies who used to fly around in Prowlers ended up getting detailed to an Army cav unit in Iraq helping out on convoy ops on account of his electronic warfare background. Being an Army officer myself, and previously having endured endless “Go Navy” cheerleading from him, I considered this poetic justice.
Anyway, he reports that the practical effect of wearing the ACU is that a lot of soldiers simply assume he is one of them, which, in fact, he is, for all practical intents and purposes. He seems to have accepted more or less cheerfully his new life as a Saildier in a Fleet of One, and tells me that he rarely bothers correcting soldiers any more when they call him “captain.”
You guys are great.
Norman – I LOVE Sailders. Never heard it before, but I will use it.
Sgt Jeff – no, I don’t want to die, yet. Been close, real close. Good advice.
Chris – a million years ago, in high school, I had a t-shirt that said, “Kill ‘em all, Let God sort ‘em out.” Roger. And I DO want the bad guys to know when the Marines are about to send them to Hell (I don’t buy into the whole 72 virgins bit).
Charmquark – I am lookin’ that one up. Thanks.
Chris, if it’s your intent to kill every Muslim to win the war, good luck on finding enough bullets. There are that many of them.
Just as a point of order, I do wear a subdued, pin on SWO pin with my ACU’s, not a gold one (somebody said something about drawing fire wearing gold pins in a combat zone). Vanguard actually makes the pins and they come in a subdued brown color and are a real SWO pin (w/ straight swords, not enlisted cutlasses – they do make subdued pin on ESWS as well). During my tour in Iraq, I was in DCU’s, but wore my SWO insignia most of the time (sew on). Nobody in 3rd ACR even questioned me on it and I have even seen a CA Soldier on the AKO webpage splash screen with an ESWS pin. While deployed, there were actually a few cases where senior officers deffered to me because of my background (usually in question involving stuff like power systems or small boat ops). Also, the national guard has a lot of prior service navy and marines, so wearing my warfare pin has been a good ice-breaker.
Interesting comments. I can remember when we wore white T-shirts under our olive green fatigue shirts, and subdued black and green patches and tapes were new.
Where I’m at in Anbar province I see all kinds of uniforms. OG overalls, tan overalls, tan ABDU’s, ACU’s, desert digital cammies, khaki 5.11, chocolate chip, but what never ceases to amaze me is the shiny metal badges people pin to desert digital cammies. Doesn’t that hurt when you cinch up your battle rattle?
Lots of corpsmen here, and lots of FMF Badges. I guess that is some kind of recognition symbol so that the Marines will be nice to them.
Cannoneer No. 4 – I was wondering how many different uniforms are running around. The FMF qualification gets the Navy Corpsman (Hospitalman rating, HM) trained on how to do what Marines do. Shooting, infantry tactics, etc. As far as shiny badges go, roger.
Keep up the great work out there! You guys have the toughest job in the world, but you are doing it better than anyone else by far.
I don’t necessarily want to kill all the Muslims, just the ones that want to kill us.
Sorry… and another thing! While I agree that common uniforms make fiscal and logistical sense, the Services will never, ever give up separate uniforms. Just as they will never give up separate weapons systems. Will the AF give up the F-22? Will the Marines give up the EFV or V-22? Why not have common weapons systems for like missions? One helo, one refueler, one fighter… at least we have one rifle, although there are different Service sights, lasers, ammo carriers etc… Until there is one Service to fight and win our wars, and I pray to God that never, ever happens, there will be different uniforms, weapons, boots, etc…
Umm… well, not really one rifle. The Navy has the M-14, USMC M16A4, Army M-4, and the endless iterations of each in their inventories. I think that the differences are good for the most part however. If we were too uniform that would make us predicatable, and predicatability kills. When everyone uses the same approach and same TTPs, they all have the same weaknesses, which can then be exploited. So, for varieties sake, I am glad that we have our differences. However, the point of uniformity within one unit is a very valid one. Outside of that, uniformity is not always a virtue.
The Navy has far more M16A1s than M14s anymore. The M14 is still around to send the messenger line across when you are starting an underway replenishment. However, every rifle qualification I have done in the last 17+ years was with an M16 of some flavor or another.
Interesting side note: when I qualified two years ago, my unit borrowed rifles from the USAF at the base at which we drilled. I qualified using an M16. Not an A1/A2/A4, but an original, no forward assist, 3-blade flash supressor original M16. I was surprised to see it and shoot it (it was very accurate), especially when I realized that this rifle was older than almost everyone in the unit.
ESWS on the ACU
As per the Army Unifrom Regulation 670–1
29–13. Badges authorized for wear on Army uniforms. A badge is awarded to an individual for identification purposes, or for attaining a special skill or proficiency.
a. Military badges awarded by the Department of Army, U.S. Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard, and the Director of
Civilian Marksmanship. (See para g, below, for additional information.)
g. In accordance with AR 600–8–22, personnel must obtain authority from HQDA before wearing badges on the
uniform that were awarded by other U.S. Services, or by the Director of Civilian Marksmanship. The following rules
apply when wearing badges from other U.S. Services.
Just my two cents
216th GSS
Platoon Sergeant
For those of you wearing the SWO and Dolphins on the ACU, did you get the authorization letter from HQDA or do you just wear them… thanks
Jeff
Unfortunately it seems there has been a failure to communicate regarding the purpose of NAVADMIN 038/07 as evidenced by an ignorance concerning Army policy on the wear of Navy warfare insignia on the ACU.
Background… I am a Captain in the Army; but I was enlisted Navy from 1994-1997 and a submarine officer from 2000-2006.
In accordance with section 29 of AR 670-1, the Army accepts requests to wear skill badges earned from other service branches on the Army uniform. With the approval of Army Human Resources Command (HRC), I now proudly wear my gold (not subdued) Submarine Warfare Insignia and my Scuba Diver pin (subdued) on my ACU’s. However, the issue is not whether or not the Army will allow the wear of Navy badges on Army uniforms because HRC recognizes some Navy insignia as skill sets and rejects those thought to be career fields (see AR 670-1). The issue is one of consistency. Navy folks imbedded in Army units are not imbedded to put on a uniform fashion show and show off their chest candy. The “C” in ACU stands for “Combat” which is where most Navy guys sent IA and imbedded in Army units find themselves. When Army guys prep their unform for the field (bullet proof jacket, kevlar helmet, etc.) they remove all pin-on badges. It’s called going “sterile.” Sailors are being asked to do the same. Opportunities to show off your wares will come when you get back home (safely I pray) and don your Navy threads.
CPT Palmer,
I am also a former Navy Submariner and am now serving in the ANG. Did you have to obtain individual permission to wear your dolphins or is it ok in general? If you do have to obtain individual permission, who did you contact and how? Any help would be greatly appreciated!
SGT Blake
Matthew.Daniel.Blake@US.ARMY.MIL
Great comments! I have a good one. I am a Navy veteran and a qualified submariner. I also served in the Army National Guard and was a qualified Tanker (19K) and wore my cloth subdued dolphins. I think I was one of the only sub qualified tankers and no one ever questioned my wearing my earned breast insignia. If I end up joining the Air Force….
Bill
Just wondering what is the correct answer to a prior service sub guy now in the army wearing his dolpins on his acu’s and where is it at in the ARMY regs.
I took an IA over to The Sand Box last year as an E-4, and it was bemusing to be constantly saluted because the Army folks mistook the Third Class “crow” for a Eagle.
On the subject of ACU/DCU, I had both and while the ACU was more comfortable and functional, they wore out way too fast and withing a month or three out in the field, you looked like the proverbial “rolling bag of ass”
The DCU’s were heavier and hotter, but after two to three months they were as comfortable as your favorite pair of Levi’s where the ACU’s were ready for teh burn-pile
>I LOVE Sailders. Never heard it before, but I will use it.
To _earn_ the “Saildier” moniker, one must be a graduate from “NIACT” (Navy Individual Augmentation Combat Training )at Ft. Jackson, SC. Where you learn to eat, sleep, sh!t, and shoot like a Soldier… and learn the 100 different meanings of “hooah”. That is wher I got my “E” in Pistol and Rifle.
Also I find it bothersome that Navy or former Navy may wear warfare qualification devices on an ACU, but I cannot wear my Army Combat Action Device on my Navy DCU’s. It is in the uniform regs I looked it up on BUPERS-ONLINE.
I’m all for one standardized uniform (except for the Marines. they need the “Oh shit, here comes the Marines, run away!” recognition.)
The base I was at had Korean, Georgian, Australian, and British and US forces all in the same FOB, and at meal time the DFAC looked like Martah Stewart on acid, with all the different colors and patterns.
I have a question, one that’s being batted back and forth, but nobody has a reference or regulation that points in either direction. How many warfare pins are allowed to be worn on the “cammies”? How many on the service dress or working uniform? Some say 3. Some say 2. Which is it? thanks!
Jason, you can wear 2 (for Navy). The warfare insignia of the specialty in which you are currently serving is your primary on top and the secondary on the flap below. You can look it up in the uniform regs. NAVPERS 15665.