Just leave the boys alone. We have other things to spend the budget on. Send them out to sea and get them ready for combat. That’ll take care of the idle hands.
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Secnav is a genius – that’s a shocking realization that drinking is an ubderlying cause to disciplinary problems – I had no idea that marines and sailors at war for nigh on ten years would be drinking heavily to blow off steam… and the answer to stop it is check them randomly and help them on their way to a career ending judicial proceeding??? I don’t know about all of you guys, but I have a radical and cutting edge solution: how about we provide more recreational opportunities and alcohol and heinously unhealthy junk food at more social events where these chaps can let their hair down and party after multiple deployments and work-ups… come on now – are any normal people out there anymore?
Fianlly – what does it say whe a sub commander can’t keep alcohol off a submarine for gods sake – its not like the boys are popping out to 7-11 after duty hours to pick up some PBR.
Really? Is this really necessary – how demeaning.
LtColP, I think you’re missing the boat on this one. Alcohol abuse is generally a symptom of other serious issues that are detrimental to a unit’s efficiency and morale. It’s one thing to go out with the guys after the duty day for a drink or two, and it’s entirely another matter to show up to work the next day still drunk.
In my professional life I have seen people who trashed their careers, marriages, and reputations because of alcohol abuse, and I have represented “good people” in Court who got drunk, got in their car, and got into a wreck injuring or killing innocent people and going to jail for it. In some instances, their friends and professional associates knew they were drunk when they did it, but did nothing to stop the self-destructive behavior because confrontation is uncomfortable, and then “tut-tutted” about how they had ruined their lives.
Jumping to personal lives, ever seen a drunk parent at a kid’s sporting event (these seem to draw more drunk parents than band or choir concerts)? Ever know a kid of a raging drunk father to grow up into a undamaged adult? The odds aren’t good.
God knows, I’m not advocating that the officer and enlisted ranks be staffed by warrior monks, but alcohol abuse is a serious problem in any high stress or high tempo arena, and it’s better to identify it early on and deal with it than to see a life or career irrepairably harmed and then say, “I saw it coming, but what could I do?”.
I understand what you’re saying, and generally I agree. But having seen the anti-alcohol programs in practice this is just another way for the military to cut down on personnel. It happens every time we get a Democrat president. They either cut down on personnel by lowering the Defense budget, or they make a bunch of rules that make/force people out. Our current CiC seems determined to do both and bring our military to its knees in the process.
As far as drinking on ships is concerned, we had people coming back plastered on a regular basis after a port visit. They’d sleep it off, get up the next morning, and go to work. Every now and then there might be a scuffle at the gate, or on the way back to the berthing, but it was generally handled by the drunk getting knocked out, dragged back to their rack, and one of their buddies would watch them to make sure they didn’t hurt themselves any further. That’s what happens when you are out in the middle of the ocean/desert for 6-12 months at a time.
Well, that’s what happened before the Navy started with their last “drinking reduction” campaign. Then they started busting people for coming back even marginally drunk, even if they caused no issues out in town or getting back to the ship. Punish people for showing up to work useless (which they already do), or committing any other crimes, the Navy doesn’t need ANOTHER program.
If you think the destructive behavior is bad now, just wait until they disallow drinking altogether. Things on subs are already getting interesting with them not being able to smoke onboard anymore.
Bill: You do have a point (as usual!)– it is symptomatic of other things, and hints at wider disciplnary issues. I wasn’t kidding when I said that the Navy ought to get the ships under way and training. Hard work and good leadership will do wonder.
This is a serious over reaction. The story did not list any hard guidelines on implementation, but I will not be surprised if some Marine or sailor does not lawyer up and file a suit against the Navy for violating their privacy.
The military runs on discipline. The answer is not a device that will destroy a person’s career. Every Marine and sailor has a superior who is expected to ensure his or her subordinates are 100 percent capable of doing their jobs. Those are the people to decide whether a person should be disciplined.
The wider implications of this program are staggering particularly when these people are stateside. Will each person need to blow into a tube before sitting at their desk? What happens when a person goes out on a Tuesday night, drinks too much and shows up to work on time the next day. Enough people, myself included, have managed to make it through a day hungover. Granted, if you are going on a live fire exersize this cannot be tolerated, but again, that is why you have NCOs and officers.
In the end this has less to do with controlling alcoholism than it does with the government, again, trying to control every aspect of our lives.
And the government using the military as a testing ground for their social policies.
You know, people used that same argument against integrating the military. Some old bad habits die hard.
Bill,
You miss the point entirely. Perhaps intentionally.
Bill – we’re not talking about parents at baseball games and “having a couple after work” we’re talking about 17-22 year old combat veterans who’ve just come back from one tour and are most likely already in workups to go back. No comparison to your groups. …young men, full of vinegar, ready to fight. As I’ve said, bring them back, occupy them with sports, recreation, good food and drink, and let them burn-off that combat tour – for months on end if required – all under the eye of the sgt’s and lt’s. This of course in conjunction with a return to training. Who do you want killing taliban, the vinegar boys the milk toast.
Last line should read “vinegar boys or milk toast”.
LTCOL P,
Every single DAY we were in port on 3/C cruise, I would have set off alarms. If I tried that now, I would be dead in 96 hours.
This is SECNAV’s priority. Because he hasn’t a war fighting bone in his body. He needs to go. He hasn’t seen the football since kickoff.
In almost 23 years of service, I thought I had seen it all. What a bunch of bullshit. I agree that no one who is still hammered should be in the duty section. THAT’S WHY YOU HAVE LEADERS WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO FIX THOSE ISSUES. This where the deckplate leadership is supposed to take charge and fix it. If they can’t, then you have the green table. It works. If the individual is still to fucked up to fix themselves, then it’s time for ADSEP. This is centralized command at its worst and I believe there will be backlash to this one.
Another bit of evidence that the troops are nothing but cannon fodder.
Ever since the PC Gestapo, politicians, and lawyers have taken over the country and the military, the military has gone to crap. I knew back in 72 after the race problems reared it’s head there would be problems. I do not say this lightly, I saw it based on the fact that the command facilitator for the race relations course a/an Negro / Black / African American First Class referred to the course as “Watermelon U.”
Since that time the military in general and the Navy in particular has rolled over for every PC hair brained diversity, anti- drug, anti-alcohol, gender centric, I’m OK Your OK/Not OK Bravo Sierra that has come down the road.
“In the old days” you bet we had problems, BUT we had leaders not automaton micro managers. Back in those days we also had youngsters that had parents that cared and weren’t raised with Dr. Spock, if you don’t know who he was you won’t understand what I am saying! If there was a problem child in the division or work center the junior petty officers took care of the problem, If it got to the LPO or Chief, the first time would be handled with a boldfaced lecture and a little head or bilge cleaning with maybe a note for the next round of evals, the second time was a stronger “bulkhead or fan room lecture” and a special eval by the Div O, if the problem persisted and went past the Div O there was another special Eval and most likely a recommendation for mast. IF it got to mast, usually the problem was either corrected by the C.O. or the subject non-conformist had already personally detached themselves from the command. Officers pretty much handled these things in a similar manner among themselves after hours.
Now that we have managers instead of leaders we have Evals / Fitreps and awards written by the individual and rubber stamped by the Chain of Command. We have senior Enlisted and officers with NO leadership ability or skills. This is evidenced in the USN in particular by the number of relief for cause in recent years. WHY and HOW were these dirtbags NOT weeded out by observation and evals / fitreps. I think the answer is their bosses were too busy being a soft shoulder to cry on and were afraid for their own career if they cut a crappy eval on someone or did not recommend them for advancement and in the case of officers deep selection to command yesterday.
It is WELL past the time to say enough is enough. This must come from the top down. When was the last time a GO/FO resigned because they, their troops or the country was being screwed by the politicians?
I rest my rant.
Jesus H. Christ, if I didn’t believe you all were serious, I would think you were doing the old Monty Python routine, “Kids today think they have it so hard. In my day…”.
Bill, the reactions above are the opposite of that routine. It has nothing to do with it being “more difficult” in the past, but that the problem was handled differently and more effectively via face to face military discipline. I think the best argument for maintaining that system is the fact that all branches of the military managed to control the problem. These are adult men and women we are talking about. Some will certainly develop drinking problems just as people do in civilian life, but unlike civvies, the military has a hierarchy in place to ensure work gets done safely. If this heirarchy is undercut by a memo from above then discipline suffers.
Doug, you’re serious, right? You really believe there was a day when the military hierarchy effectively dealt with drunks in the ranks? When I was an enlisted troop in the early 70′s the NCO and officer ranks were chock full of drunks who had seen their last promotion because they propositioned a senior officer’s wife at a function, they got caught peeing on the parade field in their dress blues–in the afternoon, they passed out in formation, they missed a turn and drove into the base commander’s quarters.(my personal favorite)… and those were just in my experience as an MP. It was dealt with by doing nothing. Why? It was one less Major, or SFC, competing for the next promotion, and as long as they weren’t in your chain of command, who cared?
That’s hogwash Bill, really. Have you completely lost faith in “todays” leadership? Aaaahhhhhh so you were an MP, it’s all so clear now. :-)
That’s hogwash Bill, really. Have you completely lost faith in “todays” leadership? Aaaahhhhhh so you were an MP, it’s all so clear now.
Alcohol and Polypharmacy are actually killing our Troops all too frequently and more effectively than any complex attack the enemy can mount.
To paraphrase a comment I heard in a commanders PME: “Turning a blind eye to alcohol or other substance issues in the past garrison military was bad leadership; In today’s combat deployed military it is unconsciounable. “
Don’t know about you doc but the complex attacks I was part of killed our Marines and sailors pretty effectively. More corporate mantra hogwash kool-aid of the type that’s driving this goofiness. When you next meet with reverand jim jones don’t drink any more of that juice.
You no speak with forked tongue. Leadership needs to step up, not gadgetry.
I see Mrs. Grundy got the ear of the incumbent Secretary of the Navy about Demon Rum. The last time was a hundred years ago when Josephus Daniels did away with the rum ration.
A few things come to mind…
The sailors who made it back to the ship with 3 sheets to the wind are not that big a deal, as long as they make it to the head, and then to the rack to sleep in the arms of Bacchus until reveille, and arise to a epic hangover and a busy morning. The act is essentially self punishing
(I speak with experience). Since as Florence Nightengale pointed out, orders are not self executive, the danger to morale and mission accomplishment of killing the career of your most promising assault boat coxwain, or up and coming engineman over a peccadillo is obvious enough to most Captains and XO’s to render this plan nonoperative in due time. Ad interim, it will not help. Current measures in place are more than sufficient or optimal. To continue….
The ones who come back as tasmanian devils bent on thumping the entire chain of command in sequence to alleviate the overpressure in that sailor’s stress locker have to be isolated, taken in hand and deprived of any opportunity to carry out his drunken foolishness. If it becomes a habit, lower the boom. Mean drunks who come back and bully on board, and DUI’s, warn once and then lower the boom.
In none of the above cases is a breathalyzer of any utility what so ever.
Lying in wait to ruin the future of a sailor quietly returning to the ship in good order who measures out .01 above the limit is utterly destructive to good order and discipline of a fighting ship. IM nottheleast HO.
We intend to go in harm’s way. Together. In the same boat. Know your troops. Take care of your troops. Be firm, friendly, and fair. Treat them like people you care for and want to trust.
NOT like this nonsense.
Judgement re the proposed course of action: 1.6.
Grandpa Bluewater:
I believe you have scored the comment of the year thus far.
Grandpa is like that. As we New Englanders like to say, he’s wicked smaaaahht.