Who is at War and Who Is Not?

Amen for the Army Air Corps.

I couldn’t agree more, this is an absolute disgrace and heads should roll. I thankfully retired from the AF in Nov 2000 after 20, this after starting my military life in 1978 as a tanker in the USMCR (what was I thinking doing a lateral?) what was going on then was a disgrace but all I’ve seen since is a continued downward spiral. It is now a force with no leadership and accountability except in very few cases. I really knew that the AF was done when the last 1 star list was released in May. I saw some of these men in action as senior Captains; back in the mid 90’s, they were worthless then but to a man very political savvy. This is what happens when you have no warriors in the traditional sense, shoot even most of the rated promotions went to guys who spent more time behind a desk instead of a cockpit.
. I used to think that this was caused due to a lack of training in history and emphasis in esprit de corps like the Marines have. I’ve since concluded that there is simply a lack of a true warrior culture and mentality because the great majority of Airmen are technicians not Grunts, the officer corps is just as bad if not worse.
I worked in fighter aircraft maintenance the majority of my career and came to these conclusions after having to deal with one maintenance officer after another who was clueless. Once in my 17-years on the flight line we had a Mustang who had been a maintainer. Other than that I can count the number of O’s who could contribute on one hand, and both of these very talented people got out instead of playing the political game. We SNCO’s simply did not need them because so few new anything about the weapons systems they had nothing to contribute to the conversation.
Being the whole Air Force is essentially one big support operation for the real warriors on the ground the Marine and Army infantry and other combat units. I can’t really see any downside with the majority of the current force falling under Army control and Strategic forces under the Navy, unless of course you are an apple-polishing general Officer who won’t have a job if this happens. Keep up the good work I really enjoy your blog
Semper Fi
BillMill

This has nothing to do with the policies of the Air Force... it has to do with FAA regulations. During air shows, the airspace is bound by some very strict regulations that are above and beyond anything you would see normally due to the parameters of the flight plans used by the pilots participating in the airshows. Special NOTAMs are issued by the FAA preventing access to the airspace. These are filed with the FAA at least 30 days in advance. *EVERYTHING* is very carefully scripted. When exceptions are made to the regulations, script, and flight plans, accidents happen. And when accidents happen at air shows, the lives of thousands of people are in danger.

That "Army official" would do well to go get his private pilot's license and learn about how things work before running his mouth.

Arcane, you are missing the point.

Which should have priority? Returning military have have died for our country, or, an Air Show? A fracking Air Show!

Would be nice for you to comment on the substance of the issue before running your mouth.

Arcane, you are not just missing the point, you're full of c8%#.

If Andrews AFB can conduct an annual air show that runs for three days in May, and still conduct normal operations (Can't you just see someone telling the President, Gee, I'm sorry, we're running an airshow here. You'll have to drive to Richmond to get on Air Force One.) then it can be done at Dover.

What we appear to have in this case is a typical Air Force jerk who is all show, and no go. He needs to be immediately relieved for cause and be sent in to ignoble retirement.

Some people here are still acting juvenile.

It may interfere with some peoples' macho image to hear that there are rules of the road and consequences when violated. There are just some things you do not do, in US air space.
Regardless of the personal wishes FAA calls the shots. You are taking pot shots at the messenger not the message.
The idea of returning the AF to Army control, now that would be interesting. Go back to 1939 when each army major unit had assigned Air Assets for their exclusive use. Each Corp might have one B-52 & one B-1 assigned to be at the call of an Army Corps? Maybe have 14 Fighter planes?

There was a reason for an independent AF, and it was because few Ground Generals had any concept of time and mass effort.

Lets be realistic, there are few Army units who are dedicated to annihilate potential strategic targets.
What some are so enthusiastic endorsing is to follow the German and Soviet Air Order of battle for WWII.

It was much the same bone headed thinking that used Tactical Fighters as Strategic Bombers and Strategic Bombers for Tactical support in Viet Nam. Had a car sales man directing traffic then and look what it got us.

Say if we go with Organic Air Support do you think the Navy will be there for the Army or only for the Marines?

Now if the observations is that the an Air Show for the general public is a BMW (big money waste) you will find me in complete agreement. If you want civilian access why not close DFW for 3 days to all routine traffic and not interfere with random Transport arrivals at a military facility.

What some are suggesting is the routing aircraft through a live fire exercise. An Air Show is basically a live firing exercise with airplanes and jumpers. No problem as long as everyone is on the same page.

I need help understanding the underlying issue. The officer receiving is inconvenienced, but the fallen soldiers are arriving at the correct place and time and protocol, if I read this correctly. What am I missing?

Chap, it's a matter of priorities. Air Show should have been temporarily ceased and the crowd asked for a moment of silence while the escort flew in and landed.

Thanks. I've updated the post.

Where to start? Yes, the Wing Commander at Dover may be an officious prick. Yes, as Arcane and Red Raven point out there are regs re air space etc. But the attack on the Air Force is juvenile and malicious. Too may of my brothers have paid the price. My best friend, an A-1 driver, went down on Christmas Eve, 1971, while riding shotgun on a rescue mission over Indian Country. Before that he had saved numerous groundpounder asses flying close support. A-10 s have done the same more recently and they aren't flown by candy ass politicians.
Possum, Laos, Class of '67

I retired from the AF in 1998 with 22 years. I saw the writing on the wall about 1991 when the political correctness began rearing it's ugly head and a new class of officers and some senior enlisted began the "change". Even the vocabulary started changing like we were not suppose to say cockpit and a mess hall was now to be called a "dining facility, barracks were now dormitories, etc.
The majority of pilots both fighter jocks and heavy. were trying their best to keep the real Air Force intact and the traditions handed down by the likes of LeMay and Arnold. but it looks like it was a losing cause in some cases including this debacle at Dover.
The Air Force to return to the Army? Thats a good joke as red rider and possum have pointed out.
My next door neighbor told me he is alive today because of the close in work of a F15-E Strike Eagle pilot.
The Air Force needs to get back to the "bomb the hell out of them" mentality and away from the college fraternity crap.
And yes as a Weapons Mech. I too could not figure out why I needed to wear BDU"s instead of the OD fatigues. Camo on a white concrete flightline?? Go figure.

Am just speechless at the dishonour shown to the Fallen and their families and just know that no one would have objected.......just speechless, Sirs.

Return to AAF? USAF not pulling their weight?

Pry your head out man. USAF vehicel maint guys drive and protect convoys every day in the sandbox - other provide EOD or comm services..

Ever hear of TACP/ETAC - the guys with the 'funny' stripes out with the grunts and snuffies -there to provide close air support? I'm retied USAF and lived/worked/went to the field with the Army. Do not give me 'they not pulling their weight'.
/rant

In regards to landing the C-17 in the middle of the airshow, that idea sounds horrible. I seriously doubt that's what the families of those returning troops want. A major media circus, and a couple thousand civvies gawking and snapping photos.

No. Divert the plane to an alternate site, and otherwise ensure all requisite procedures are followed.

As far as Air Shows in general go, yeah we should probably ditch or seriously curtail them. We're not having any problems recruiting, and we need the money elsewhere.

As far as AF leadership in general goes,I seriously doubt we have any more deadwood floating around then the other branches. And if anyones' paying attention, we've now got a heck of a good CSAF in General Schwartz. Former cargo and SOCOM pilot, who's made some surprisingly "No bullshit" calls as of lately.

I'm in a very maintenance intense career field, but a good number of my coworkers have already been out to the desert(s). (Qatar, Iraq, Afghan, Kuwait, Saudi). One of my SrAs pulled convoy security through Afghanistan, another pulled wrecked vehicles back to base in Iraq, a third counted vehicles coming off of boats in Iraq. The list goes on and on. We don't do anything regarding our AFSC, we're always hole fillers.

Townie76,

By not providing any of the original sources and just having us trust one voice out of many who thinks the Air Force isn't doing its fairshare makes it very difficult to carry on an intellectual debate. While I have no doubts that the helicopter was denied access to the base because of the airshow (there have been several good posts already that explain that issue), we have nothing to go on by conjecture that the C-17 was almost diverted to another base as well.

However, as Curtis points out, not only do I think that this wasn't a bad idea, I think it was the most respectful suggestion the Air Force could have made. Thousands of civilians wandering around a flightline drinking beer and munching on nachos is not the "honor" that these fallen heroes deserve. Nor is it the spectacle that their families should be subjected to when those flag draped coffins are brought off the aircraft. Beyond that, the logistics are also inappropriate. Those heroes deserve first class service and they deserve to be protected from the nosey/ignorant/malignant who are very likely to be in attendance at the airshow. Since airshows are open to the public, its difficult to prevent folks with a beef from getting on the base. These are not the yahoos you want anywhere near the respectful ceremony our heroes should be receiving. But with thousands of folks moving in close proximity to highly expansive assets, you can bet that security is going to be stretched extremely thin.

Having the C-17 land at McGuire instead of Dover is probably the better option. I am unaware of any particularly significant reason for Dover to be the receiving base other than the fact that its the usual point of entry. Hardly an issue of "dishonor" or break of faith with the fallen.

WRT Air Force contributions to the war effort...again, already addressed to some extent by earlier posts including CAS, JTACs, and ILO taskings. But there are additional Air Force bodies out there as well to include ISR liaison officers, WIT Teams (Air Force EOD and Air Force Intel) but most importantly to the ground pounders, I suspect, is the nature of rapid emergency evac. How many more flag draped coffins would have to be flown back to Dover if the Air Force didn't get them out of country to intensive medical care in Europe and elsewhere?

No, Airmen are not grunts. They are not trained for and they are not needed for it. We already have the finest ground forces imagineable in the form of the US Army and Marine Corps. What we do need are professionals who can execute the Air and Space mission and to date, I've heard little complaint about that. (Yes, much belly moaning about not enough assets or spending money on F-22s but that's the generals/SECAF/etc, not the pilots/crews/maintaners and support personnel who actually execute.)

Finally, wrt the Air Corps...get over it! Its not going to happen. Its like wishing for the days of .25 gasoline. Ancient history that applied only marginally well at that time and not at all now.

The Air Force does have a strategic role to play. While Air Force ISR does spend the majority of its time supporting the current fight, not all of it does. Much of it is dedicated to watching Iran, North Korea, and China (not by our decision but by the Strategic decision-makers, so I don't need a lecture about where the "next" fight is likely to be.)

Though, on that topic, we have been notoriously bad at predicting where the next fight was going to be (and there is plenty of blame to go around for that)..with the exception of Iraq (we got to choose that one.) So if the predictions are even remotely correct and we do end up taking on China (because predicting that every future war will be like the last is laughable), where's the Army going to be? That's going to be a Navy and Air Force fight in total. The Marines might get to play, so why doesn't the Army just get rolled in with them?

The Air Force exists separately for a reason. One that may not be important *right now* or even be apparent to most, but it is there. There is a reason why the force has evolved over the past 60 years, otherwise, we would still fight exactly was we did in World War II.

BK, both good posts and I might add, the AF right now probably has more taskings than any other branch of the military. Strategic airlift, tactical and CAS support, space and aerial intel, nukes, medivac, missile defense, etc. the list goes on.
And I will add this, I cannot ever remember a Air Force reconnaissance plane ever being forced down and captured intact. (China 2001)

Planning an Air Show is no small endeavor. I'm sure the Air Show planners where giving no foreknowledge of the arrival of the C-17 and the Commander making an immediate decision whether to disrupt the Air Show, or coordinate an alternative landing for the C-17. Whatever airport the C-17 landed in, the appropriate respect were maintained for the soldier's remains as they move to the next destination.

Maybe we shouldn't get mad at the commander making an immediate decision to separate the two efforts in order to maintain the focus and dignity of both, and look to the planning geniuses who scheduled the C-17 landing and the Air Show at the same time. Nobody has asked why the Air Show planners didn’t consider something like this happening, robably because they’ve never been faced with such a situation, but now we can hope they include these types of show disruptions in their planning.

Oh, and yeah, those pesky FAA “safety” rules…

Mustang, you are quite correct. But then, given that the zoomies used a platform that mach freaking 4 they really were never in any danger at all from the opfor, only from their own potential errors. Must be nice to run away from danger faster than you can get into it.

The air force is a support branch and nothing more. They need to learn that along with learning how a MILITARY organization should be operated. They also need to stop killing our own people. Check out the number of air force attributed fratricide incidents in first gulf war and second alone. Hal Moore can tell you about one or two notable ones too.

"the AF right now probably has more taskings than any other branch of the military. Strategic airlift, tactical and CAS support, space and aerial intel, nukes, medivac, missile defense, etc. the list goes on."

*cough*bullsh*t*cough*

This is bullshit, plain and simple. I'm in the Air Force and I can tell you that nothing, NOTHING! should interfere with the fallen's remains. That means inconviencing the escort for even a minute. It's unacceptable, unsatisfactory, and unthinkable. There are a million other solutions than diverting the escort -- sending him away to a civilian facility is WRONG. That a (#%(&#@$987 airshow was the reason for redirecting him is just the icing on the cake. I wish we'd get our heads out of our arses.

Friendly fire, fratricide, what ever you wish to call it is a two way street. Are you saying that artillery and naval gunfire has never caused fratricide??
Back to topic, if what others have said is true then I say that officer at Dover should be fired for ignorance. But it sounds that there is more to this story than meets the eye.
And yes Fast Nav, there is a lot of diffrent taskings and missions the AF is doing. I'm not saying the other branches are doing little or nothing.

37 members of the Air Force and 8 members of the Air Force Reserve have been killed in Afghanistan.

48 members of the Air Force, 3 members of the Air Force Reserve, and 2 Air Force Employees have been killed in Iraq.

That's a lot of death in a war zone for pretending that they are warriors.

You all need to learn some facts and some respect for these men and women.

"Chesley Sullenberger is an American airline transport pilot who successfully carried out the emergency ditching of US Airways Flight 1549 in the Hudson River, offshore from Manhattan, New York City, on January 15, 2009, thus saving the lives of the 155 people on the aircraft."

Saved 155 lives single handed. Not too bad.

He graduated from the United States Air Force Academy. Became a fighter pilot in the USAF. But hey, he was just playing "warrior" right. He isn't a hero, he was just in the USAF. Those silly flight suits.

I think many of you have been terribly disrespectful, and yes I take it personally since my father served in the USAF for 30 years.

Ignorant Bonehead: "I realize Air Shows are important to the Air Force. The Air Crews can strut around in their Flight Suits and pretend they are real warriors, and the non-rated types can strut around in their Tiger Stripe Camo Uniforms and pretend they are real warriors. The public will believe all of the hype as they see the latest in the Air Force Hardware and the Air Force pretends they are winning the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan."

While this ignorant bonehead is spouting off, an A-10 unit and an F-15E unit deployed to Bagram Airfield, Afghanistan set a record in May for the most combat flying hours flown in a single month, 5000, in support of the war. That's five months worth of peacetime flying.

In Afghanistan, the first thing ground troops do when they make contact with the Taliban is call in an airstrike, and they're plenty pissed if those air assets are busy elsewhere. Most engagements end with air assets neutralizing the threat, ie an F-16 drops bombs on them or an AC-130 gunship tears them to pieces. In a way, ground troops are almost used as bait to prompt the the Taliban to reveal themselves so that aircraft can pummel them.

All of this is being done by airmen who are apparently some kind of bogus warriors in Mr Ignorant Bonehead's view, maybe even peaceniks.

The Air Force performs a lot of missions beyond the horizon of troops on the ground. Even though you can't see these tasks being done, they are shaping your battlefield to your advantage and even preempting some battles from ever being fought. The idea of subordinating the Air Force to the Army has been tried and failed. That's why we have a separate, independent Air Force. How about learning from history instead of repeating our mistakes, eh? Folding the Air Force into the Army makes about as much sense as folding the Navy into the Army.

That said, the chance of an Air Force base commander intentionally disrespecting the returning remains of soldiers killed in battle is zero. It's just one of those things that's never gonna happen. I suspect that this is one of those Internet myths born of a little truth and a lot of distortion. Stop acting like a bunch of hysterical little girls and dial down the outrage, shall we?

..sheesh a grunt in F-22.Thats got to scare the chinks..it scares the h@ll out of me....ok enough of the sarcasm,Tantor is spot on,I`m soooo sure there is more to this story than the tidbit we got..if anything that's may gripe with the AF...every decision must be in triplicate and run thru proper channels,hardly a decision is made with out review. So to land this flight in the middle of an air show imhho,would upset me if that soldier was my son or daughter,and you can bet you arse I would have a heart to heart with the inconsiderate bastard that didn`t think of the pain it further inflected upon the family..no but hell no...I love my Army buds,but they have a mission,we of the AF have ours...they overlap in places and no where close in others...damn it guys..think...!

if true, someone should be fired-honoring our fallen should always be a priority

I just wandered on your site. I won't be back, given the rant of one of your lead bloggers against AF. A lot could be said in defense of the AF, but probably lost on Townie.

thanks so much

منتديات

It was a very nice idea! Just wanna say thank you for the information you have shared. Just continue writing this kind of post. I will be your loyal reader. Thanks again.

I refused to transfer over the the Army as a grunt. My job was electronics, they tried to send me to Benning, I refused to go and was discharged as 'unfit' My contract said USAF, NOT Army. Despite arguing my case, the bastards kicked me out.