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The Dark Side
By Townie 76
The subject is torture, the subject is imprisonment, the subject is our Constitution, the subject is how the United States squandered (my words not her words) the standing we had in the world after 9-11 by using techniques for obtaining information, which we in the past have condemned.
The Dark Side, by Jane Mayer. This is a must read book for all military professionals. Before reading the book, one must understand the biases of the author. She is a journalists, she has written in the past for the L A Times, and now writes for the New Yorker, she is an eastern liberal. One of here previous works was landslide on the election of Ronald Reagan in 1984. If only half of what she says is true, and I suspect she has taken journalistic liberties, which a serious historian would call into question, nevertheless, this is a frightening book.
The subject is torture, the subject is imprisonment, the subject is our Constitution, the subject is how the United States squandered (my words not her words) the standing we had in the world after 9-11 by using techniques for obtaining information, which we in the past have condemned.
The heroes in this book are few and far between, but when they are there. They are the men and women of the legal profession, both attorneys in private practice, career government bureaucrats, political appointees, and military lawyers who stake their reputations and careers on the line to do the right thing, to ensure that the United States treated those captured in our war on terror according to international agreements and the basic underpinnings of our nation. The villains are many, the two most prominent are David Addington, an advisor to Vice President Dick Cheney, and Cheney himself. Both men, have adopted a dubious constitutional view, of the unitary executive, in which the President as Commander in Chief can damn well do what he wants, to include authorize torture.
This constitutional view is at odds with United States History, and more importantly goes against the positions set forth in the Federalists Papers by Mr. Hamilton, Mr. Madison, and Mr. Jay.
This book is the first recording of history—it is not history—it is journalism. The true story will not be know for many years to come and will the responsibility of future historians to write. While this book has faults, it is a must read by the professional military officer as it sets forth truly disturbing behavior by the United States, behavior that in the eyes of many in the world makes us not the good guys but the bad guys.
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Comments
haven't read it (yet), but i'll be interested in seeing into the underpinning of her argument, if she adopts a loose interpretation of Geneva III and the specifications for qualifying for the privileged classification of Prisoner of War (vice being an unlawful combatant)...
if she adopts that loose construction, then i can see her spinning off into faulty conclusions.
Sweet, lawyers and journalists, the stalwart defenders of American ideals........
This constitutional view is at odds with United States History
Here's a little historical perspective for ya, Abraham Lincoln threw journalists in jail for less........and he's considered the nations great savior
Townie,
I find your assesment oddly inline with former President Carter's speech at the Democratic National Convention in 2004. Imagine how much more we could have accomplished with the whole free world as our allies after SEPT 11th,............... IF it had not been 'squandered'.
This has nothing to go on the content of the post - but someone please get Townie 76 an editor before he/she posts again.
"She is a journalists"
"One of here previous works was landslide on"
"Both men, have adopted a dubious constitutional view, of the unitary executive" (excessive commas)
"The true story will not be know for"
Poor grammar, spelling, punctuation and editing distracts from the message and reflects poorly on the messenger.
I don't agree with the notion that Torture has caused the rest of the world to view the US in a lower standing than before 9-11.
The governments in the rest of the world never viewed the US with a high standing. The governments in the rest of the world view the US in the light of their own best interest.
Actions of the US government should likewise be in the best interest of our country.
Torture should be restricted to extreme and unusual circumstances requiring direct order from the president. Torture should be conducted by government entities other than DoD. Unilateraly removing this option from the president is insane.
No other country would restrict torture of an American citizen because American policy did not allow torture.
Does it feel good to say the US will not torture under any circumstances? Sure.
Good policy is not made based on feelings. We are not interested in being liked or looked up to. We are interested in results.
Doug Santo
Pasadena, CA
Regardless of what anyone thinks of torture, much less the popular black and white interpretation of interrogation techniques and detentions, to think that we 'squandered' any 'good will' by aggressively pursuing our interests in Iraq and other places is grounds for critical examination. First one has to establish that this ephemeral 'good will' existed in the first place and where it may have existed. My personal experiences traveling and overlooking many a foreign area don't support this.
Hate to get all 'academic' on you, but without any substance to the contrary this line of thinking appears to me a clear propaganda meme spread by an ideological interest for political posturing. My burden of proof is a little bit higher before I will accept this basic framework, much less start to believe in the 'heroic' lawyers guiding the conduct of our uniformed forces abroad or whatever other contributions they have hindered in spite of their bureaucratic nitpicking from thousands of miles away. But hey, maybe I'm wrong.
Torture is illegal, and it's wrong. Anyone who dismisses it or excuses it because the bearer of the bad tidings is a journalist or a lawyer needs to buck up.
As always, the problem lies in defining torture. I think most people agree that cigarette burns and other injury/pain techniques are immoral. But what about less invasive means? At what point does interrogation become torture. When does imprisonment become inhumane. I remember hearing comedian John Stewart decrying waterboarding as torture because he wouldn't want to go through it. So is a 5 year prison sentence torture? I certainly wouldn't want to spend a nickel in prison, so it must be. Most human rights groups consider sleep deprivation to be torture, but we routinely subject medical volunteers and medical interns to similar. Putting a man in a dress, or making him wear feminine colors constitutes torture in some cases.
Waterboarding came along after my time but I remember some pretty harsh interrogations
in several programs I suvived. In my opinion, if a particular technique is used on our own guys in their training its acceptable to use on the bad guys.Its not complicated.
Former Commandant of the Marine Corps General Barrow has passed away.
I will note The passing of Commandant Barrow,
the "Old Soldiers", fewer every day that truly understand what this country has strived to instill in the coming generations. Granted, their voice has been effectively stilled by the confluence of former "HIPPIES" that wormed (YES WORMED) their way into the college campuses posing as "professors" if only to embed their own MARXIST pogrom of indoctrination. This is most evident in the present election cycle, see the blind eyed, glossy eyed "YUT" with the hope and change diamonds dancing in their eyes? Bottom line though...MY 70's generation allowed this to happen, we have to take the heat for this disaster that may happen 11-4-08. TRUTH SUCKS sometimes.
Before I go.......
NEAL, we are the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!
not the french, asshat!
carter was a pussy just for content..... and "PROPER CONTENT."
I am apalled to find this tripe on this blog. I severely question the inclusion of it, and may amend my future visitation of the site due to it.
Since when does ANYONE in mainstream journalism earn the priviledge of commenting on the running of the War on Terror? They've been an outspoken supporter of America's defeat, in my opinion.
Whether interrogation techniques currently used are torture or not is no concern of mine; just keep in mind that I don't recall any internet videotapes of men having their heads removed by US interrogators.
Before you cast our efforts in the dimmest light, consider the actions of our enemies.
What a foolish posting for OPFOR.
Doug: +1
Richard: +1.5
GregS: (this pains me) +2
See Policy Review (Oct/Nov2008 Issue 151, p80-85, 6p) for a balanced review of Dark Side by Benjamin Wittes.
Just watched an interesting panel on CSPAN. Guests were a former CIA officer and an Air Force reserve Colonel who both had extenisive interrogation experience post 9/11.
The CIA case officer, a self-professed liberal and Democrat- was adament that waterboarding was torture, but careful to note that there was an instance in 2002 where it worked -- and in all likliehood prevented another devastating terrorist attack.
The Air Force Colonel took a harder stance against the practice of waterboarding, partially based on ethics -- but mostly because torture has proven ineffective outside a few isolated cases. Evidence cited was scientific studies, as well as historical examinations of the KGB and American POWs in Vietnam.
Both agreed waterboarding was a form of torture. The Colonel especially, in that his opinion was shaped by his fellow SERE instructors who were adament that the practice constituted torture.
One thing I think we can all agree on is this -- prisoners should *never* be placed in an environment like the one that existed at Abu Ghraib, where poorly trained Guardsmen with zero interrogation training or experience were given prisoners and expected to extrapolate information from them.
This could be a moot debate. From everything that I've heard from the intelligence world, the US is moving away from practices such as waterboarding, simply because they don't believe it to be an effectual methodology in the larger field of intelligence collection.
GregS asks, Since when does ANYONE in mainstream journalism earn the privilege of commenting on the running of the War on Terror?
I'm happy to answer: In the United States of America, commenting on the actions of the government is not a privilege. It's a right.
FWIW, many of the sources Mayer uses in her book are current or former military. Is there something wrong with a civilian talking to soldiers and relaying what they say to the public? I would think that's a good thing.
Thanks for a great post, Townie.
Happy I am to be straffing clear of hyprbole and chaff! I am trying to get back into the good graces o the host, will keep my comments civil and to the point....lest the scotch erodes the safety and causes me to be exploded into the box for punishment! AND I've BEEN THERE...very cold!!!
GregS
poor lad, no "TRICK OR TREAT?".
HERE...a SNICKER BAR for ya. Carmel, other items and chocolate...crunchy-chewy and AMERICAN.....HAPPY HALLOWEEN!
Gee John, I was at Abu Graib in 2003. An active duty MI BDE was responsible for running the JITC with RC augmentation. It's true that an RC LTC was the in charge of the JITC, but the AC O6 was there almost daily. BG Barbara Fast, later to head the MI school, was the CJTF 2, a role in which she routinely visited AG to apply "get it done" pressure on the inter tm. Remember everyone was from Sanchez down was being driven hard to catch Saddam and take the wind out of the remaining resistance (or so we thought). BTW, never saw any waterboarding or anything other than "good cop/bad cop" interviewing going on personally. I certainly would have intervened had I witnessed anything like the photos. I guess I lean toward the old Supreme Court interpretation of porn, you know torture when you see it. Values training for soldiers and ethical leadership is the proper resolution in my opinion. Still, I had a formal policy prohibiting excessive use of force in my org(critical in AWE), but no one can stop the occasional free lance sadist except vigilance before and prosecuting them hard.
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The question is not whether America has failed to live up to its ideals legally, morally, or ethically; the historical record indicates that it surely has. It will always fail precisely because America is an ideal. Its failures in policy, intent and simply humanity can only be understood against the benchmark of all of humanity and its actions. American torture is an egregious failure of our ideals, laws and morals; rest assured failure will happen again in another form and in another circumstance. Acts of torture, common to all of humanity in varying degrees of cultural acceptance and government sanction, cannot be evaluated in isolation. Likewise, magnanimity opposite side of torture can likewise not be evaluated in isolation, but as torture needs be considered in light of the total of human expression and action of this attribute culturally, legally and as expressions of government policy. Applying these metrics the true nature of issues such as American torture is best understood.