Generation Kill – The Cradle of Civilization

Mr. Lowry -

I have not watched Generation Kill. The name itself indicates the direction the series is going. The name is disrespectful of our men and women in harm's way. I have lost trust that mainstream American media will present factual and unbiased accounts of news and issues. I prefer to get my news and information from websites like this and people like you. Keep up your good work.

Doug Santo
Pasadena, CA

I take it that is Maj Peeple's tank in the photo (from the markings)?

My husband and I watched the first episode this weekend. I wasn't in love with it and he seemed on the fence. I don't have the best perspective since I've never been a Marine. He's a USMCR officer and deployed a handful of times in the past 7 years, the most recent as a battery commander. We weren't too excited to see the second episode but I suspect we'll watch the series and hold off our formal opinion until then. But my jaded side thinks it won't shine the nicest light.

YES! That is Major Peeples tank in Ambush Alley. As his tank broke down just south of the city, on the 23rd. I believe that this photo was taken a day or two later, when then were bringing his tank back to him.

One of the hardest-charging officers in the hard-charging 2d LAR was 1stLt (that's right) Mike Murray '89... a late-comer to the commissioned ranks! I believe he and the real Todd Eckloff got a VMI photo together at a chance meeting somewhere north (way north) of Baghdad.

I would point out that no one is claiming this to be a documentary. it is TV. they borrowed from wrights book and it is fairly accurate in the scenes, but I think if people accurately showed what happened it wouldn't be good TV... it would be history

the name generation kill is from the book and is not meant derrogatively

I think the reviewer is taking it too personal.

the banter is what they are trying to convey

fantastic write-up, Richard.

Col P -- an '89er was a 1st!! Lt in 03? Wow. Kudos.

Keep in mind, guys that you don't have to join the military upon graduation from VMI.

I, for one, thought Robert John Burke (Robocop 3, Rescue Me) did a great job portraying the fiery spirit of General Mattis.

Seth,

Both the book and the series are purported to be non-fiction. I am merely pointing out that the author and the screen writers have wandered from the truth to support their story. This not not good history and is a distortion of the facts. Too often, Hollywood has presented their opinions as fact in this war. This is just another instance. For an author that spent years researching, I am very upset.

People derive their "understanding" of the war, and history for that matter, from pieces like this. The producers have a responsibility to at least try to get it right when they claim to be producing a non-fiction work.

Richard S. Lowry

Keep after them, Richard!

"Last night, I was particularly offended by the implication that 2d LAR indiscriminately killed civilians north of Nasiriyah. I was also disgusted with the distortion of the truth in the events surrounding the fight in Nasiriyah."

Mr. Lowry, remember that the book and the miniseries are all taken from the point of view from the writer and the Marines with whom he was embedded. Sure, maybe some details may have been wrong but maybe you could could attribute it to the fog of war?

Innocent people always die in war and when it's Americans who pull the trigger it's more often than not accidental.

"Generation Kill" is about the Men of "Hitman 2" - Second Platoon, Bravo Company, 1st Reconnaissance Battalion, 1st Marine Division. The story is primarily focused on them.

HBO's Band of Brothers wasn't about the Rangers. It wasn't about the 82nd. It was about the guys who fought in Easy Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment.

So yeah, Kill overlooked Tanks and LAR but the production and the narrative was limited to one unit of Recon Marines. Let's not blow our stacks over it.

The insinuation of the title is that somehow US soldiers are cold blooded killers...this is offensive. Also it insinuates that there is this massive cohort of military people that are the same way. The proportion of actual combat soldiers who have seen combat in Iraq is trivial compared to the total population of the US. Particularly compared to armies who suffered casualties that were truly devastating to the national demographic; like Russia in WWII or England and France in WWI.

You guys sound like liberals who blasted New Yorker Magazine for having a cartoon of the Obamas dressed as Muslims on the cover. I guess you'd have to be a member of my generation (I was born in 1983) to not be offended at the title of the book. I understand what Generation Kill means.

My Drill Instructors made us chant "KILL!" whenever we were ordered to do just about anything.

Marines are trained killers. Someone has to be.

Josh - I think LTCOL P's point is that most of us who were commissioned in '89 are O5's now, while those who were commissioned later are not. Probably better than 50% of our class was not commissioned, though I know of several who decided to join later (our BR LTCOL Scott Leonard was actually a special student in the NROTC program, but received a USMC commissioned two years after we graduated).

Lots of different ways to go...

Richard - keep up the great analysis. I have my copy of Marines in the Garden of Eden with me as I watch this show for reference.

Thanks for the heads up Richard.

Good thing I dont have HBO. I recently read Marines in the Garden in Eden and so look forward to your next book.

Botton line is HBO wants to make $. A title like Generation X steps up or whatever isnt very catchy. Also while we were all trained to kill, the endgame is eventually for peace (of some type), which will be hard to attain if we indiscriminately kill at will. I think we just have to be wary of the media portryal of the US military as reckless killers and not as professional Soldiers, Marines, Airmen or Sailors, who have the ability to act rationally no matter what the situation.

I don't know Richard, aside from the streets being too narrow and the buildings being too tall, I think that's the best depiction we're going to see of An Nasiriyah. The artillery round that wounded several Marines from Alpha Co was mentioned in the book Generation Kill, and I believe it was also mentioned in Fick's book.

Keep in mind that neither the book nor the show are intended to accurately depict the war from a macro level - they revolve around depicting it as the Marines of 1st Recon experienced it. That explains many of the factual inconsistencies about An Nasiriyah.

Personally, I'm still enjoying it. I don't think it portrays the Marines of "Hitman 2" as reckless killers, it portrays them as... Marines. For the most part they sound and act like the Marines that were in my rifle platoon.

Bullnav, did you know Lt. Col. Eckloff at VMI?

Richard,
Today one of my section heads and I were discussing the show...HBO shows in Canada as MoreMovies (MMovie channel)...the point being, in Canada this is perceived as "accurate history".

I laid into the observations with references to "Marines in ..."!! I also allowed as how some creative license makes for good TV rather than accurate TV or history.

Then we went into the Marines I know for comparison (joint unit in Baghdad, about a dozen Marine officers and senior NCOs).

My Sec Hd left with a better impression of "what it's like" and will probably be watching something else.

Josh - if I did, I do not remember him right now. I will take a look at the '89 Bomb tonight to see if he rings a bell...that whole time/age/memory thing. Plus the fact that I am a submariner and did little with Marines...

Now, LTCOL P knows him. Read Richard's post on GK from last week.

He was an NROTC instructor when me, Charlie, and *I believe* Slab were cadets.

Desert Sailor: in Canada it is shown on TMN
(The Movie Network ) you were close tho:>)

and if we are being honest, not only in Canada is it viewed by liberals as "accurate history" but also by the liberals in US, who believe this to be true despite the fact that there are so many in-accuracies, all of which I've put posted on my blog "Diary of A Hollywood Refugee".

However it is NOT perceived by Canadians on the right as accurate history. We know better:>)

Richard is right. The book and the mini series have been marketed as a work of
non- fiction: an account or representation of a subject which is presented as fact.

Truth is, most of the facts in the book and mini series have been distorted to suit an agenda. With the exception of Nathanial Fink, most officers are depicted as either incompetent or craven or both.

That this book was NOT endorsed by the Marine Corps speaks volumes.

I know a couple of the real Marines of
Gen Kill & I worked in Hollywood for years, as well as having read the book, so I shared many insights with Pat Dollard on his BlogTalkRadio show " Jihadikiller" .

I invite you to listen to the archive where you'll also hear thoughts from Marines at:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/welsh/2008/07/14
/the-jihadikiller-hour.

And yes,I use my nom de plume, DangerGirl,during the interview :>)

I will leave the last words on Gen Kill to Nathanial Fink:

"In one scene, an unbalanced and trigger-happy platoon commander derisively nicknamed "Captain America" shoots an unarmed Iraqi man in the back. In another, the same officer leaps from a berm and tries to bayonet a subdued prisoner.

It's an interpretation of a book, which is itself an interpretation of events," Fick said in a phone interview, after viewing the series at a screening the producers held for Marines. "If anyone had seen the type of behavior [from Captain America] you see on the screen, he would have been relieved. If I'd been shown the way some of these guys are, I'd sue the pants off them."

He pointed to a scene in which Marines riddle an oncoming car with bullets from about 50 yards away and said that in reality, the car was farther out, making it harder to discern whether it posed a threat.

Messed up the link. My bad, but I blame John, since I was talking to him while I wrote the comment :>)

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/welsh/2008/07/14/the-jihadikiller-hour.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/welsh/2008/07/14/The-JihadiKiller-Hour

Ok...it's STILL John's fault!
3rd time's the charm!!

There will be about 1 minute of music before Pat and Welsh who served in Iraq, start talking.

After watching the 2nd episode with a C 1/2 Marine. He stated that the vast majority of the scenes put him right back in Nasariyah.

I think the only thing he was offended about was how the writer was trying to imply that 1/2 did not accomplish the mission of securing the bridges.

Read your review with interest. I wrote the book Generation Kill, and co-wrote the mini-series. The two facts in your criticism I agree with are:

It was the 2/8 Marines at the bridge that day south of the Euphrates, and "Ambush Alley" Nasariyah was considerably wider than initially depicted.

Regarding the first criticism. The 2/8 Marines were part of Task Force Tarawa. In the show we repeatedly and correctly refer to Task Force Tarawa being in the city fighting. There was a thought among some in the production that the audience would be confused if we showed the area by the bridge south of the Euphrates--an area that seems to be outside the city proper--and referred to Task Force Tarawa Marines fighting there as well. The whole point of the confrontation among commanders on the bridge was that Task Force Tarawa was in the city, i.e. north of the bridge, and RCT was bunched up south of the bridge. Some in production worried that the audience would be confused if we stated that part of Task Force Tarawa was also south of bridge and seemingly outside of the city. My initial preference was to state that the 2/8 Marines were south of the bridge, but as we finalized production I accepted this change for the sake of delivering a story that an audience could follow. The compromise seemed acceptable since we repeatedly credit Task Force Tarawa with doing the brunt of the fighting in Nasariyah.

As for the narrowness of the city, when First Recon's Bravo Two initially crossed the bridge we followed a route in which were in fact channelized in a narrow street. This shortly opened up to the broad avenue later nicknamed "Ambush Alley." If you noticed on screen, by the time the platoon stops in the city--where Person says something like "This would be a nice place for an ambush"--we show the Bravo Two Marines set back from structures, with open spaces around them and some foliage, which more closely approximates the feel of Ambush Alley.

A few of your criticisms seem to be based on you taking offense at things that are imagined. For instance, at no point do we try to portray 2nd LAR as wantonly killing civilians. The spot where we pause in the show to have Marines discuss 2nd LAR and the accuracy of their weapons we specifically show dead Iraqis who are holding RPG launchers. Clearly, we show 2nd LAR having killed the right guys.

Throughout the movement north of Nasariyah we also depict many dead civilians, or at least dead people in civilian vehicles. These dead were actually present, and documented in photographs taken by myself and others. The dead we show, such as the girl with her legs inexplicably blown off, are based on specific photos and/or interviews. We actually show many fewer civilian dead than I and other Marines witnessed. In the series we don't state who shot them or why, since I myself didn't always know. Could have been 2nd LAR. Could have been Cobras. Could have been other elements of 1st Recon. Anyone who paid attention to the show, would have noted we spent some time at the bridge scene depicting Alpha's commander wrestling with the fact that unarmed men dressed as civilians were hiding amidst civilians and working as spotters. We also note in other places in this episode that the enemy was not dressed in uniform. The reality of this war was and often remains that civilians get killed both as result of the enemy's tactics and no doubt from the larger cause that *stuff* happens in war.

As for the number of Marine casualties at Nasariyah the episode makes clear that the Marines of First Recon were going on info from the BBC and the Marine rumor mill. At the time both the BBC and the Marines' rumor mill were stating there were hundreds of casualties. According to research I did after that fact and what is reflected in Tim Pritchard's excellent book Ambush Alley some 18 Marines were killed (most by friendly fire from USAF A-10s) as you state, but I believe the number of wounded was significantly higher than your figure of "about 20." In any case, in the particular scene in our episode you refer to as wildly exaggerated we depict what the Marines were discussing at the time, not what historians stated later on.

As for there being no shooting at the river prior to 2nd LAR crossing you are just dead wrong. First Recon's Alpha Company was fully engaged at the river's edge shortly after arriving about noon local time, taking mortar fire, sniper fire, machine gun fire and rounds from an enemy AAA gun from positions across the river. At one point, one of Alpha's commander's prevailed on a nearby Javelin team, probably belonging to 2/8, to take out a AAA-battery, which was successful, but then kicked off another flurry of fire from other enemy positions. As depicted in the show, Alpha was cleared hot to take out enemy spotters, which they did using everything from .50 cals, to Mark-19s to sniper teams. Meanwhile, 2/8 Marines on the other side of the road from us were continually engaged with enemy forces holed up in some kind of hospital. At the same time, there was also much shooting in the field west of our position. A team of First Recon Marines went off in pursuit of that and wound up in some blue on blue contact, in which luckily no one was hurt. 2nd LAR did not cross bridge until several hours after First Recon arrived.

You are also wrong where you state there was no errant, friendly-fire artillery round. There was, and it caused Marine casualties. A piece of it also hit 1st Recon B2's Team Two humvee. (I took a photo of Team Two leader, Pappy, holding the fragment of nicely-machined, friendly shrapnel.)

Most of these events are covered in my book (and in Nate Fick's One Bullet Away, which generally supports and corroborates my account). The HBO mini closely follows my book. The production included three Marines who served in OIF1 with First Recon--two as advisers and one as an actor. In addition, Ben Busch, the actor portraying Major Eckloff in the show, was a recently retired Marine Lt. Col. who had previously commanded an LAR company in Iraq. While there are inevitable compromises, brought about by condensing several weeks into 7 hours, filming on locations other than those in Iraq, and sticking to the perspective of one small unit, the filmed drama is much closer to the book than most adaptations.

What's strangest about your criticism is your interpretation of the mini-series as being somehow intended to slight the role of other Marines. As this episode repeatedly makes clear, the great frustration of First Recon's Bravo Two Marines was that they were not in the fight at Nasariyah, that Marines from other units were fighting and dying. Even when they got to the bridge, the unit we follow most closely, Bravo Two, still does not get to fire a single round. Then, when they finally cross the bridge, the episode depicts grunts from Task Force Tarawa fighting on the ground, not the guys in Bravo Two.

So aside from the gross factual inaccuracies of the review, it primarily seems an exercise in taking offense at imagined insults. Not sure whether this was intentional, or you just couldn't follow the show.

YRS,

Evan Wright

I believe from Mr Wright's above comments that Alpha, 1st Recon actually got to the Euphrates River after LtCol Eddie Ray took 2d LAR through Ambush Alley and I think his claim that my review has "gross factual inaccuracies" is not a fair assessment.

Evan, while we do appreciate you chiming in on your perspective, the jab at the end was maybe a tad unnecessary, no?

I was there when 1st Recon passed through our lines. Maj Eckloff and I actually had a brief reunion off to the west side of Hwy 7 that night. I don't recall any friendly artillery hitting nearby at the time, but I have no trouble believing that it did happen. I will also confirm that the rumor mill at the time had 1/2 sustaining many more casualties than they actually did. We had heard upwards of 60 KIA at one point. At one point I was able to obtain a casualty list to look for my buddy's name, which showed that they were much lower than we had heard.

As for 2nd LAR pushing through the Alley first; well, they were RCT-1's vanguard. I don't believe that Ambush Alley was quiet by then, as I know 3/1 got into some fights while securing the intersections for RCT-1's passage of lines (BTW, Evan, it was 3/1, not TF Tarawa Marines, fighting in Ambush Alley when you guys pushed through).

I do feel that the series slights other Marine units - but hell, Marines always talk shit about other units. We repeatedly trash talked about both 1/2 and 3/2 (although we shut up about 1/2 after March 23rd). Much of our trash talking was probably based on bad information and misconceptions. Here, as in many other places, I think the series is generally true to a team-level perspective of the war. Where I think it may go wrong is in trying to portray events at higher levels, such as discussions between the battalion staff.

The "Generation Kill" title is curious--there was a hint in one episode about the Twomby character that he was raised on violent video games, and he mentioned in one episode how the combat was almost boring to him......I'm sure there are guys like that in the military...I knew a couple when I was in, though we never
experienced combat.....but I've met guys like that in civilian life too....the inner cities are FULL of these kind of people. This present generation of 20 and 30-somethings committed to military service is a great asset for this country--I'm proud of all of them. I just wish our cowardly and greed-ridden Congress and Senate would forget about their oil portfolios and let them loose for wholesale killing of our "jihad" enemies...just a few days of turning the U.S. Air Force loose would save so many American lives----Generation Kill, indeed....

I wanted to thank Mr. Lowry for posting my reply to his criticism in its entirety. I also feel I owe him an apology for the snide tone my comments took toward the end of my remarks. By this point in writing my response I had simply become hotheaded.

Having exchanged emails with Mr. Lowry since I recognized that both of us share a similar passion for the Marines and the historical events at hand. Moreover, I value the service he renders as an author, television critic and host of this site.

I look forward to his next posting and book.

Evan Wright

I wanted to thank Mr. Lowry for posting my reply to his criticism in its entirety. I also feel I owe him an apology for the snide tone my comments took toward the end of my remarks. By this point in writing my response I had simply become hotheaded.

Having exchanged emails with Mr. Lowry since I recognized that both of us share a similar passion for the Marines and the historical events at hand. Moreover, I value the service he renders as an author, television critic and host of this site.

I look forward to his next posting and book.

Evan Wright