Marines to take Afghanistan?

I 100% agree. I, too, have checked into this proposal, and even though I don't know the details, it seems to be a really good idea from the over-all perspective. Right now, it seem all of our forces are hodge-podged across the middle east and this would help to consolidate everything.

I have mixed feelings on this one.

First, Anbar is quiet... for now. What evidence is there that this is a permanent situation? And, if it's not going to be, then is the Army prepared to take over the fight there? It seems to me that it has its hands full just keeping the lid on Baghdad.

Second, what is REALLY the point of the Marine Corps? I know that this is HERESY on this board... but if the Marines can operate in Iraq and be replaced by Army units and vice versa in Afghanistan, then what is it that the Marines bring to the fight that is unique? And, if it is unique, then why can't we simply adapt the Army and merge it into the Marine Corps or vice versa? I know this is an age-old debate, but the rational side of me has always thought it odd that we have TWO land forces (one of whom's only real justification is that it performs amphibious operations... a pretty rare thing these days) and THREE air forces.

What I do see positive (and hopeful) is that an unconventional mindset will return to Afghanistan. Even though the Corps will still require Army SF, PSYOP, and CA units there to execute their mission, at least these units will not be micromanaged and misused as they have been under conventional Army commanders.

But, critics are right to say, "where is the beach?" Again, that is really the only tangible justification for the Marine Corps anymore. Who was it that said "America will need a Marine Corps as long as she thinks she does"?? I actually believe it was a Marine, around the time back in the 50's when those in Congress were looking to kill the Corps.

Like my NROTC instructor during my First Class year at VMI used to say, "The Navy-Marine Corps team can do it all. Get rid of the Army and Air Force, we can handle it."

So Joel, I agree. Merge the Army into the Marine Corps, and give the Air Force's budget to the Navy...

(I am standing by for incoming...:))

I agree with the idea, to make each zone designated for one force. BTW, the marines create an "elite" ground force, so merging the army into the marines would defeat that purpose, but you might be able to do it the other way around. Also, marines wont need the army SF in Afgan., because they have the Force Recon units, which are trained to do Unconventional Warfare, like SF.

Renegade, I think you're mistaking the mission of Force Reconnaissance, which is, as its title suggests, reconnaissance, which is not an unconventional warfare mission. SF's primary goal is to immerse themselves in foreign environments and train indigenous forces. It is their raison d'etre. While the Army and Marine Corps have been using conventional units to train indigenous forces in OIF and OEF, none of these are as adept as SF.

At the same time, you should familiarize yourself with the structure of SF. They have ODAs that are language trained in Pashto, Urdu, and other languages necessary for operating in A'stan. To remove them from the country would be to give them nowhere else to implement their local expertise. Plus they've been there for years and now the terrain and people better than conventional forces would. Anyone who knows a lick about counterinsurgency will tell you that that familiarity is critical. They simply are better at that job than a conventional Marine Corps unit will be... and I'm saying that as the brother to a Marine infantry officer, and a Marine officer candidate myself.

No need to take cover, Bullnav (or, in your case, go deep). I'm throwing out the service pride BS on this one.

Hey, if they want to incorporate the Army into the Marine Corps, then fine... as long as one organization can do the job. I don't (and never really have) seen the need for two organizations to do one job.

And, in the GWOT, what is the unique capability that the Marines bring to the table? If it's their "force package" and MEU-SOC concept... then, great. But, with some doctrinal changes (and the disbanding of the Air Force), the Army can do the same thing.

Again, it's about redundancy and wasted resources... resources that are not infinite.

And while we're on the topic, what really is the purpose of land-based ICBM's? Besides being targets. Their mission is much better executed by MOBILE and STEALTHY launch platforms (SSBN's) that really give the U.S. a first-strike capability.

I could go on, but many of you know what I'm talking about.

Renegade, if the Marines create an "elite" ground force, then what really distinguishes them from the Army's Ranger Regiment or airborne forces? Those are elite light infantry units as well. You can teach Marines to jump out an airplane (LTC P proved that) or you can teach Rangers to hit a beach (they've done it before).

Again, not looking for the typical, service rivalry crap... I really want an honest debate on this.

Thanks so much for the laugh, I so want to forward your last comment to some people...

As for the proposed plan to shift the services: Sounds expensive (logistics) and doesn't really relieve anyone in the end, but I am sure there are strategic reasons somewhere in there :)

The Marine Corps is a combined team of air and ground forces. We are an efficient and capable service. Also, we have a stronger sense of esprit de corps than does most of the other services. Our identity as a separate branch is much stronger.

Esprit de Corps... okay, great. Show me where that justifies a separate ground (and air) service in a defense budget.

To me, it doesn't. A unique set of capabilities or mission does.

Maybe the Marines do it better. Okay, I'll accept that. Ergo, we incorporate the Army into the Marine Corps. That would probably amount to about a 250% size increase (forgive my math). Will this "new" Marine Corps retain the qualities that they tout to justify their existence?

Again, not looking to piss in any Marines' corn flakes... I'm looking for a real answer.

Joel and Bullnav,

Upfront: I'm Army. The only real problem I foresee is the lack of enough photographers. I've never seen a Marine or Marine unit without a photographer around to capture those sexy Hollywood moments!

Okay, now that that's outta my system, I'll put the service rivalry aside to express some thoughts in order to kick this can further down the road.

- "The Few..." goes away and gets turned in to "The Only..." which will have an impact because the Marines' primary selling point to young wannabes is the Marines' uniqueness and selectivity. Does the MarineArmy give up its standards to meet the demands of size?

- Traditions. 1st Marines have a long legacy. So do the Garry Owens of the 7th Cav. But what about the new regiments like the 57th Marines? What are their traditions? What makes them special and bonds them all?

- Administrivia. How will the MarineArmy adapt to promotions? Efficiency reports? Oddities like the Marine NCO begins growing up as a Lance Corporal, while in the Army the soonest is Corporal and that's only if there's a shortage of sergeants around. Army gets to wait for stripes until E-5.

My points are on the human side of it. In terms of materiel, doctrine, capabilities there is little to distinguish the Marines from the Army. It is the human terrain of each service where I see the widest divergence in American fighting men and women.

Joel, I like you more and more...

DaveO - yes, you are absolutely correct. There is a lot of tradition with Army units, as there is with Marine Corps units. As there is, or rather used to be, with ship names. My comments were somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but I wonder what an Army that was truly a lean, maneuver-warfare force would look like. Not to replace the Marine Corps, but to take care of things like Slab's Brother brought up, and also to be more a land-component, rather than a landing-force.

Then again, when was the last time we conducted an opposed amphibious landing? Korea. Is is a capability we really need?

Do we need an Army that is capable of fighting the Soviet hordes in the Fulda Gap?

It seems to me that as the DOD looks at progressively smaller budgets, the service chiefs are going to have to quickly figure out how their forces are going to stay relevant in the eyes of Congress and the American people. And carry out the missions assigned them.

Perhaps sending the Marines to Afghanistan is the right way to go, but still you must admit they have had many successes in Iraq.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out...

57th Marines? where the heck did that come from?

Well, maybe since they cleaned out Anbar, the Marines got bored with the lack of firefights? Suddenly peace broke out, so, hearing there was real fighting in Afghanistan, they offered their services. That's so American.

I'm an old retired Air Force guy who has lived thru many changes. I see a bad period coming up in '08 of greatly increased political correctness. That's when we will need the Marine Corps. They tend to hold their standards and resist the foolishness that hurts combat readiness better than the rest of us do. Possibly they will give the other services some courage. God bless 'em!

I think that there should be only three combat services- Army, Navy, and Air Force.
After all, anyone who knows their military history knows that the Marines are an extension of the Navy, and were created as a need for ship-board protection, and for boarding operations. Since the days of ship-to-ship battles are just a by-gone past, then the govt. should really consider phasing out the Marines. I really don't see why there needs to be 2 land based fighting forces. Perhaps the govt. should train the Army like it does the Marines. I mean after all, the Marines are a better version of the Army. But to have an actual "Marine" force and call it "Marines" is overkill.

"And other duties as the President directs."

Only Uncle Sam's Misbegotten Children have that in their job description.

One of the unspoken/unwritten duties of the USMC is to prevent coups by the US Army. Has been from the beginning. That is why they guard White House and the President's representatives (embassy/Ambassador). Pretorian Guard is their unwritten collateral duty.

Most countries have more than one military/para-military ground force for the same reason, to prevent a monopoly of power resulting in a military dictatorship.

(That is also why the Iraqi MoI is not going to disband INP. Such an action would leave the IA with a monopoly of power.)

IS1(SW), USN(Ret)

PS The entire organization of the USG is seperation of powers to prevent a dictatorship. The organization of the Armed Forces reflect that same pattern...

In the 1930s, it was forward thinking Marine Officers like H.M. Smith and Ellis who saw the need for landing crafts and a plan for a Pacific War against the Japanese. The nation needs Marines because we are the guardians of expeditionary thinking in warfare.

Joel, one little problem with merging the Army into the Marines...

You're going to have a tough time sending a Command Sergeant Major through boot camp.

The Army and Marines will never become one. It's as simple as that.

Josh,

The "57th Marines" comment came from the Marines' past practice of adding regiments during periods of expansion. Were the Army to be folded into the Marine Corps, the Corps would have upward of 100 regiments. That, and "57th Marines" allowed me to engage in hyperbole to make a point.

As a retired AF guy, who has an Army Commendation medal for my two year assignment with the Army, I get tired of the bashing the Air Force gets sometime. But I remember that the Air Force is the youngest of the services, so thats OK. We can take it. We quietly do our job without a lot of movies and songs. Technology improvements in warfare (Do the Marines and Navy have Stealth Bombers?)and maintaining the "High Ground." (SPACE Command) have always helped a country be ready for the "next" war. Hmmmmm. I wonder what the death toll for the Army and Marines would have been if the AF hadn't taken out command post and communication lines early in the war. By the way, Russia tested an ICBM the other day. My son is in IRAQ with the Army and I know the dedication of the pilots above him and here in Nevada (Yes the AF, controls drones from here in the US over IRAQ) will do their best to keep everyone safe.

DaveO, thanks for clarifying. Yeah I get what you're saying now. I think that every service has its unique role and should carry out that role without jockeying for war niches. But I do agree that perhaps for the sake of simplicity the Marines should take over OEF.

Semper Fi -- except to your Army buddies in Iraq, then it's "bug-out" to the popular war. Thanks Marines.

Well this has become a very disentegrated debate. But the Marine Corps is a direct extension of the executive brach which means that in order for Marines to conduct operations, congress has no say. Of course it has its power when the Marines ask for an increased spending bill. As far as the uniqueness, the Marine Corps is a first strike force that the Army and other branches do not have this capability. They are capable, but not in this capacity, although it is compensated for in other areas(firepower, sustainability, etc.) The transfer of troops into another AO is an idea that worked in WWII with Marines in the Pacific theater. I do not see any problems in the Marine Corps adapting themselves to a new mission, after all they have a fouled anchor as part of there emblem. Remember amatuers discuss tactics, professionals discuss logistics.

America has Marines because it wants Marines. "The United States Marine Corps, with its fiercely proud tradition of excellence in combat, its hallowed rituals, and its unbending code of honor, is part of the fabric of American myth."
Thomas E. Ricks; Making the Corps, 1997
"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."
Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army
"The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of Marines. Lord, how they could fight!"
MGen. Frank E. Lowe, USA; Korea, 26 January 1952
"Why in hell can't the Army do it if the Marines can. They are the same kind of men; why can't they be like Marines."
Gen. John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, USA; 12 February 1918

The Marines are always looking for a way to grab some glory for themselves. The Army has done a remarkable job in Afghanistan as well as the Air Force. The Marines always pride themselves on being the toughest. While the going is tough in Iraq for both the Soldiers and Marines, the "tough" want to get out (Marines). Stay in the fight like a man you COWARDS!!! You don't hear the Army crybabying to get out of Iraq or Afghanistan.

Wow Joe that post was incredibly stupid considering the Marine Corps isn't structured like the army. We are better equipped for the job in Afghanistan than the Army. Deploying the Marines to Afghanistan will make things more effective and efficient. The Marines never asked to leave Iraq hell I dont care where they send me I'm just as willing to die in Iraq as I am in Afghanistan so fuck you. Unless you have been over there and in the shit dont talk. I dont disrespect the Army guys who have fought just as hard as I have. It doesnt matter what branch someones from either way they're an American soldier and thats whats important, we're all fighting on the same side.

Wow Joe that post was incredibly stupid considering the Marine Corps isn't structured like the army. We are better equipped for the job in Afghanistan than the Army. Deploying the Marines to Afghanistan will make things more effective and efficient. The Marines never asked to leave Iraq hell I dont care where they send me I'm just as willing to die in Iraq as I am in Afghanistan so fuck you. Unless you have been over there and in the shit dont talk. I dont disrespect the Army guys who have fought just as hard as I have. It doesnt matter what branch someones from either way they're an American soldier and thats whats important, we're all fighting on the same side.

Wow Joe that post was incredibly stupid considering the Marine Corps isn't structured like the army. We are better equipped for the job in Afghanistan than the Army. Deploying the Marines to Afghanistan will make things more effective and efficient. The Marines never asked to leave Iraq hell I dont care where they send me I'm just as willing to die in Iraq as I am in Afghanistan so fuck you. Unless you have been over there and in the shit dont talk. I dont disrespect the Army guys who have fought just as hard as I have. It doesnt matter what branch someones from either way they're an American soldier and thats whats important, we're all fighting on the same side.

the fucking marins suck ass,,,afghainistan HAS BEEN CRAZY for the last three years. BEFOR THEY GOT THERE AGAIN... you know after they got kicked out for sucking ass......special forces runs that shit now and always has,,,they just get more news than the army, im not in it and i still know that,,,fuck the shity marins they will die and fuck it all up....but know you know

I can not believe what i just read , i have a son in the marines and husband in the army , they are both good at there jobs .Shame on you for what you wrote . You are not in the service so shut your mouth about who should die .

Hey stupid asses, Force Recon is A PART of USASOC the SF run it.... I keep up on your info befor you go talk shit about the units thar run ALL the ground forces in any war. SF. So no you cant just let Force Recon do there own thing in AFGHAN, they work hand and hand. Trust me I know. Also stop putting down the Army, there infantry BCT have done just as much fighting there and got into just as much shit. You might be a marine fan and thats fine. But know your facts befor you talk shit about a force that has already been fucking shit up in that country. You are just know seeing it. Do everyone a favor and back date into the history of Helmand province Afghanistan. Or just shut the fuck up with your useless comments about how bad ass the devil dogs are and how the Army cant hack it..

SF 3rd Group

Other than the amphibious landing capability of the Marine Corps there is one great difference between a Marine Air Ground Task Force operating in combat and an Army unit operating with Air Force aircraft providing close air support. The Marine Air component provides CLOSE air support, something the airforce DOESN'T and DOESN'T REALLY WANT TO.

ya'll are a bunch of f'ing retards trying to talk like you know something when you all dont. been to both fights both sides are doing a good job. quit getting into a pissing contest with each other.

Comments have obviously been done for a while on this thread, but...

Another big reason that the Corps is a separate branch is logistics. It takes a hell of a lot longer to get the Army and Air Force into place than it does a MEU. The Corps is basically designed to get to wherever the hotspots are, right now, grab some ground, and start breaking shit while the other services prepare to bomb the crap out of it and flood the area with troops.

Korea and the Pusan Perimeter, anyone?

fuck the marines....they are over glorified douche bags....be a real man and become a ranger

i think the government of US will learn why the Talibaan is keeps on coming back. i have been taking to some Pakistani people. they have been said why this Talibaan is keep on existing, why bcoz the the Pakistani government itself is the one who making the Talibaan. reason their gorvenmentis the one of the most corupt governance. once they form the group name Talibaan, this government will start informing other country that they are in need help but the truth is they make money out of it. This kind of government doesn't care about their people, and i was really feel sorry that there are lots and lots of dying bcoz they want to help the stupid kind of governnent which is Pakistan,

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I agree with the idea, to make each zone designated for one force. BTW, the marines create an "elite" ground force, so merging the army into the marines would defeat that purpose, but you might be able to do it the other way around. Also, marines wont need the army SF in Afgan., because they have the Force Recon units, which are trained to do Unconventional Warfare, like SF.

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