A Modest Proposal on Base Defense

I like the idea, but with slight modification. Heres a few ideas I've bounced around my skull.

NCOs and above will be the only ones allowed full CCL carry on base, (I'm a senior airman, and a gun owner. Even I'm nervous about a bunch of A1Cs running around on base with personal fire arms)

Consider issuing Senior NCOs and officers M-9s while onbase in uniform. (Except in certain restricted areas) If they resist, tell them it makes them look professional.

Consider providing private ranges through MWR or the exchange system. Theres already a shotgun club on my base, and the BX sells guns. I want a pistol and rifle range where I can go shoot. I really want to rent an AR-15 a few times prior to M-16 qualification.

Consider placing a small amory in each large building on base. Minimum of 10 weapons, 10 sets of armor, and ammunition. (larger buildings may have larger armories, or one on each floor, whatevers necessary to adapt) In case of an attack, each building will have the capability to post an armed security team.

Allow Dorm dwellers to keep thier personal fire arms in thier rooms, provided they are secured and unloaded. (Currently, dorm residents are required to store their arms at the Security forces Armory) By unloaded, I mean no round in the chamber. (Dormrats will of course be allowed to possess ammunition, and loaded magazines, etc)

Will the safety troops have a fit? Of course, but flying is risky business. Fighting is risky business. I'm an Airman 24/7, I'm a target 24/7, stripping me of my capability to defend myself from hostile forces 24/7 is not a good idea.

If they prohibit carrying on base, it reflects the mindset that bases are a "secure rear area". They need to get over that. There are no secure rear areas.

I offer a dissenting opinion: concealed weapons = major no-go. In my short 17 years in the Army have seen/heard/investigated too many joes who thought shooting the First Sergeant and that SOB who'd snaked their girl was the only correct thing to do. Brings the weapons out into the open.

Believe there are four things each base commander should do to both improve security and the competence of his or her command.

Training: each servicemember needs to know and practice weapon safety. Get them over the mindset that they are clerks. Post them on guard (with weapons) on the motorpool regularly. Likewise, train them physically and mentally to be comfortable with their weapons.

Resource: working weapons, ammo, and range time. Most joes enjoy range time, especially once you get beyond the standard qual drill.

Discipline: discharging a round into the clearing barrel is not negligent - it's stupid and careless and needs to be handled as such. Stop scaring joes with loss of rank, pay and priviliges. A shovel, rake, and a lost weekend are marvelous resources for curing the complacent joe.

Lastly: any soldier who doesn't have a combat patch - deploy them, especially if they are field grade officers or above the rank of SSG. That goes for generals and sergeants major too.

As it happens, madogre.com one-upped you when the Dix Six story first broke and suggested all active-duty personnel be given concealed carry rights. I think that's a bridge too far, but it's still better than what we have now.

DaveO,

I respectfully disagree with your premise, if someone wants to shoot Top, a personal weapons ban on post isn't gonna stop 'em. They can pick up a weapon at the pawn shop anytime.

I agree with giving guys more range time. As a tanker, I got to shoot my .45 once a year to qualify. Hell, I would have bought the ammo to shoot more.

I like Curtis's idea of opening ranges for recreational shooting.

Why not let military carry concealed if they choose, it's a right I enjoy as a civilian.

Because it's just not politically correct unless we treat everyone exactly equal. Except it is, of course, terribly unfair to keep pizza delivery guys from doing their jobs.

Lawrence,

What do you want to bet the pizza delivery guy is packing??

Old Tanker,

Agreed - where there is a will to do wrong, there are more than enough ways. And I'm betting the Pizza Guy is packing at least a 22.

Since the most likely attack inside an installation would be from a bomb, having concealed carry or even open carry of every airman on base wouldn't help at all.

If you are talking an armed assault from outside the base then a combination of the Security Police and other selected personnel (NCOs/Officers) who are armed is sufficient to provide protection. You could also have weapons caches stored at strategic places on a base where they could be quickly dispursed to personnel which would allow for quick response to an attack from inside or outside.

This presupposes that the Air Force will adequately train the average airman which in the past was hardly a priority.

NSC, I refer you to Robert Averch's killing a terrorist .

Also, I believe the clowns from Fort Dix planned to shoot up the place as well.

The six "Dix" were planning a shoot 'em up. The video that brought them down was of them practicing their shooting.

NSC,
These are terrorists we're talking about, what if they decided to start at a school on post? And the six "Dix" were planning on starting their attack from within the post. You're right about the bomb, guns wouldn't do any good, but they wouldn't hurt anything either.

Wasn't there an incident at Ft. Benning a while back? A soldier hiding in the woods started shooting at guys in formation??

Old Tanker,

Don't believe it was Benning, but Bragg yes - 2d Brigade was in PT formation when a soldier started shooting. Killed one of the officers. That was pre-9/11.

DaveO,

Bragg it was, thanks. I remembered it was pre 9/11, but I guess nobody would be carrying in a PT formation would they.

"As a tanker, I got to shoot my .45 once a year to qualify. Hell, I would have bought the ammo to shoot more.
- Old Tanker · August 15, 2007 07:04 AM"

I remember one time qualifiying at the range as a younger officer, (during Bill Clinton's first term), there wasn't enough ammo stock available for qualify all the enlisted and officers. The officers had to bring their own .45 ammo to the range. And I also recall the Bn Cmdr and his staff officers ponied up funds for the shortage of .223.

I belive things have improved since that time.

>>>

As far as soldiers shooting others, it sounds scary. Unless everyone is packing. For some reason it's not as fun to shoot at someone who can shoot back.

So everyone on base/post should be packing. Escept for the few knuckleheads who would predictably loose their weapon.

I had already read the "killing a terrorist" link, but thanks.

I also recall the Fort Bragg attack and I fail to see how my answer of having selected NCOs and Officers armed wouldn't have been an answer in that incident.

I am former AFOSI. I am currently invovled in AT work with another agency. I am also a big supporter of concealed carry.

I just don't see it working on an installation.

but however you do it, you still need to check IDs. The point is to keep them from getting on in the first place regardless if they are carrying guns or packing a bomb.

I was assigned to a small Kaserne in Germany during Desert Storm - everyone there thought our defenses were totally inadequate. Guys in cold weather gear with pro-masks, M16s w/mags (no ammo) huddled around BBQ grills in the 20 deg. weather.

Especially after the local paper reassured the populace, correctly, that we didn't have any ammunition.

When I mentioned sandbags and M-60s at the front gate to my CO, his only comment was "Defense in depth, huh?" ... you couldn't quite see him chuckling.

Multiple Internal checks at individual areas. Section off areas and require redundant checks.

Our current military (some branches worse than others) does not possess an individual warrior mindset. If they did, none of the arguments presented here would have been. If the individual warrior mindset existed within a broad base across all branches, it would be policy at minimum for all O's and NCO's to be openly armed at all times, and well qualified with same. Actions speak louder than words; in this case the action that is screaming is "we do not trust our people with guns".

I do think (the Army anyways) treats its soldiers like babies when it comes to guns.

As a cop, I carry a locked and loaded pistol on my side at all times. No safety, save for my finger not being on the trigger.

In Iraq, you were not allowed to lock and load until you got ready to leave the gate.

When I carried my pistol inside the wire, on the FOB, I had a round chambered in it. All I had to do was slap a magazine in to be ready for business. At the very least, I had one round ready to go.

Without a round in the chamber, a gun is heavy, awkward piece of metal.

Its not just the Army, the entire government is anti-gun.

How about arming the pilots? Same thing, we trust you hauling 200 people around in a metal tube at 500MPH, but can trust you with a pistol with 9 rounds in it. Mr. Pilot, you can't be trusted with that kind of responsibility.

How about traveling with firearms? You go to the counter DECLARE that you have a firearm. Show it is clear to an agent who has no idea about guns, then put it in the bag. We now have an unloaded gun that everyone knows about. Next step, take the UNLOADED and DECLARED gun to the TSA x-ray machine. It goes through the x-ray machine and the lady screams GUN!!!!!. So then you unpack the declared and unloaded gun and show to another TSA. Meanwhile, bombs are slipping through while the TSA is worried about my declared and unloaded gun in a bag I can't get too.

you still need to check IDs. The point is to keep them from getting on in the first place regardless if they are carrying guns or packing a bomb.

Pointless to check IDs. The pizza guys had IDs. Anyone serious about getting on base will have an ID and a plausible reason to be there.

We need a change of mindset. Just as with getting on the plane, the problem is the expectation that "they" (TSA or the guards at the gate) will protect us, so it's OK if we're a bunch of passive, disarmed sheep. They won't and they can't. We have to protect ourselves and be ready to take action, whether it's on the plane or on base.

Some things never change...

Late Vietnam era, I know that MCAS Iwakuni could have been taken by two dozen armed men and every aircraft on the base destroyed. Hit the MPs and the armory, kill the guy walking guard around the armory (with an empty rifle), and the base was yours.

Of course, that would have been unfair or something because we weren't in a combat zone. i guess our planes were off limits until they deployed to Vietnam or Thailand.

They did, however, issue ammunition to the officer and driver when we went around and paid everyone. Because of limited banking facilities, we used to get paid in cash.

Some base will get hit, and we'll get to listen to the second guessing. Count on it.

"Some base will get hit, and we'll get to listen to the second guessing. Count on it."
MarkD · August 16, 2007 06:38 AM

(... 8, 7, 6, 5, ...)

For what it's worth, my counterparts in the Honduran Army, when I was stationed there, were REQUIRED to carry a sidearm at all times, concealed or otherwise.

I, however, as an officer in "the most professional Army in the world" only carried mine on selected/directed occasions.

Huh.

I would think that any carry on a base should be open, whether in uniform or civvies. I mean why not - are we talking army base or girl-scout camp? Arming just the officers or SNCOs means they will simply be shot first. As stated above, it is all about being a warrior culture. A warrior should live with his weapons, be confortable with them - not regard them as some sort of Gorgon.

Welcome to the result of years of leadership by committee and a totally risk-averse cadre of senior leaders. The minute you try to implement any real force-protection measures, the Head Zippersuit will smack you down so fast it'll make your head spin.

The idea of allowing every troop on base to carry is terrifying to me right now. Air Force culture doesn't train the troops enough about weapons right now--the results would be a lot of clearing barrels blown away and legs being shot (when people put their fingers in the trigger guards while holstering).

Hell, SF troopers only get to qual twice each year and don't even get any proficiency ammo. We can't even get simunitions kits and ammo for our weapons or money to fix a busted FATS machine so we can practice realistic use-of-force scenarios.

As a service--we need a top-down change of culture. Troops need more weapons training--bottom line. The Air Force needs to wake up to the fact that our country is in a war and that means we need warriors first, not technicians. Commanders need to be made aware that all troops need to protect themselves inside the wire because the Security Forces might not be available where and when you need them. I'll never forget the nearly horrified look on the face of a non-SF troop when they were told they would have to carry a weapon and possibly repel an attack during an exercise since the SF would likely be otherwise engaged.

And one final note, there's even some disparity as to whether I can legally carry my personal weapon off-duty despite the fact that I have credentials that enable me to carry a concealed, loaded firearm onto an aircraft while on-duty.

The idea of allowing every troop on base to carry is terrifying to me right now. Air Force culture doesn't train the troops enough about weapons right now--the results would be a lot of clearing barrels blown away and legs being shot (when people put their fingers in the trigger guards while holstering).

This is my concern. I support concealed carry as I said, but people who carry concealed weapons are by and large comfortable with firearms and enjoy training with them on a regular, indeed frequent, basis. They take all aspects seriously from safety to proficiency.

However, you will have plenty of people - especially in the Air Force where is would probably be the majority - who are not comfortable with them and they certainly do not receive adequate training on them. So unless and until the Air Force takes the time and money to do that training, you would simply have dozens of accidents waiting to happen. I have been out for 14 years now so it might have changed, but the idea of arming many of the airmen I knew back then on a full-time basis scares the hell out of me. (It would give AFOSI a lot of case work though.)

So to sum up - train em as warriors and then arm them, but until then, arming a select few is the safer way to go.

I am a former AF Security Police, from 77-81. The ideas advanced about allowing weapons in the barracks and allowing personnel to carry weapons whether concealed or not is absurd.

1. Private weapons in the dorm rooms where young kids are drinking and partying would only set up accidents waiting to happen. A former roommate in Tech School shot himself in the foot in the barracks playing with a weapon.

The Security Forces had enough problems with accidental discharges while on duty. Cops would get bored and play around with weapons. I know personally of one discharge in a truck and another in a WSA storage bunker. The one in the bunker hit the wall behind me, about two feet above my head. Lower and I would not be here.

2. Having Weapon Armories in many buildings would pose security problems. A designated person would have to be responsible for the weapons, watching over them continuously day and night. Access would have to be very tight and even then, theft could not be controlled. I know of one guy, a friend, who spent time in Leavenworth because he stole a weapon from the Armory. And he was an assistant in the Armory. Thought he could get away with it.

3. There are at least two armories on every AF base that I am aware of.

There is more I could say but you get the idea.

Nonetheless, the ND's/AD's are a small price to pay. If we as a society are willing to accept the disadvantage of restrictive ROE's for political purposes (and thereby increasing our use of body bags) we should logically be willing to accept the risk inherent in bearing arms. The issue is mindset first, and then training. Without either, no force is armed regardless of the equipment.

No handgun in the world is going to save you if you aren't vigilant. Look for people who look like they don't belong and patterns of activity that are out of place. Call the LE desk or AFOSI and report suspicious activity. Leave the gun toting to the professionals.