NSFS Somalia

back just before the carter administration the canoe club developed an 8" medium caliber lightweight gun. (MCLWG) we installed it on two trial ships (USS Hull on the west coast. Don't know about the east coast ship.)

worked quite well. navy liked it and the marines liked it. One MOUNT was the equivilent of two TURRETS.

they intended to put it on 50 or more hulls. it probably would still be in service as mod MCXXVIII or some such nonsense.

naturally the peanut farmer killed it.

he did the same thing with quite a few other pretty good projects.

c

WaPo, Page A18, Sunday 3 Jun 2007.

Headline to story:

"U.S. Warship Fires Missiles at Fighters in Somalia"

One would think that with the number of military readers of this paper (admit it or not) the editors would be more cognizant of proper descriptions of events. Or perhaps the Post has discovered another secret weapons system - a seeker on a missile that can detect and target rebel Somalians based on their evil thoughts! Can one dial-in different political philosophies? Is the missile RAM, Sea Sparrow, Tomahawk, or Polaris based?

Oh! I'm sorry, missiles, shells, whatever; we are killing innocents!!!!! Wah, Wah!

I can read around political correctness; plain factual error is inexcusable. Stephanie and/or the headline editor are morons.

Rip

BN,
We've actually done very little in the way of NSFS in my time with ANGLICO. Right now we are very CAS-centric. Good on the "shoes" for finally getting to put some warheads on foreheads, though.

I do not intend to reignight the battle over battleships, but THIS old Marine pines for the days when we had NGFS on-call.

The bean counting idiots in the five sided puzzle palace on the Patomac have lost sight of the fact that we, as a nation, have a long, long history of force projection from the sea. Those with long memories recall the feeling of security that went with knowing that there were platforms with 5 inch, eight inch, and yes, even 16 inch guns standing by, day and night, fair weather and foul, to rain death and destruction at our call.

Don't get me wrong. We love our air, and nobody is more willing to drag their bellies in the mud and deliver ordinance than Marine aviators. But airplanes have a limitation called loiter time, and weather does affect them. And the cannon cockers do wonderful work, but they can't always reach where we need them, or have sufficient rounds to give us all the support we think we need.

In days of yore, when there were Tincans, cruisers, and even battleships out there on station, day and night, it gave an infantryman great comfort to know that in all weather, and limited only by the capacity of their magazines, NGFS was on call.

It was really hard to begrudge a man hot showers, fresh coffee, and clean sheets, when you knew that you could call on him 24 hours a day to bail you out. And I, for one, think we've gone the wrong way.

Marine6 Sends

Marine6, hard to make much use of NSFS when one war is being fought in a landlocked country and the other has the Marines assigned to an Area of Responsibility that is hundreds of miles from the sea. We're relying on CAS out of necessity, based on our current situation.

Slab, I wasn't arguing for NGFS alone. I'm just saying that it was a better situation when it was available when the situation was in a geographic area where naval gunfire could reach. In those days we could get a bright young stud from ANGLICO to bring in the big boys. (Oh, that's right, that's your job isn't it.)

Our current situation is somewhat unique in our Corp's history. We are not curently deployed in AORs that could be supported from ships, but that doesn't mean that we won't be in the not to distant future.

One could easily postulate that Marines will face any number of challenges along the littorals of the Islamic world for many years. And it should be fairly obvious that the primary role of the Corps will undoubtedly continue to be force projection from the sea. If the Navy is going to be providing transportation and logistics support to Marine forces ashore my question continues to be why don't the bean counters see the value of adequate NGFS (yeah, I'm an old fart, and I like the sound of Naval Gun Fire over surface fire). If it's haze grey and underway off shore let's put the tubes onboard to a very valuable job.

Let me just ask you, I know you guys are doing a great job, and I'm very impressed with the tremendous degree of professionalism that I see from all hands. But wouldn't it be nice to have another arrow in the quiver? Particularly one that isn't particularly weather dependent, and which has nearly unlimited ammunition available?

Marine6 Sends

there are certain political nuances to be drawn when the great grey fleet appears on your coast early one morning and with one or two broadsides makes very definate personell adjustments to your general staff.

you have to remember that this is the end of the world where men do things with ships, guns and sweat that our nation remembers by putting their names on the flat end of the big grey boats.

c

Hey "C," I think you are talking about one of the things I think about when I am by myself on rainy nights - MK71 8"/55. We could sure use her now - and yes with a few mods they could have put her on the DDG-51.

Hey Phibian

we were machining the hull insert and the skipper of the ship came by to watch.

a bunch of the old hands got to talking with him and recommended that he only shoot the thing over the bow as if he shot either to port or starbord he would roll the ship over to far to recover.

c

I read all of phibians references and noticed that one thing was not mentioned.

that is when we were doing trials on the MCLWG the conventional wisdom was that it cost aboout $135 to shoot a standard bag type 8" gun.

at the time it was considered to cost about $600,000. per shot for a missle.

i have absolutely no facts to back those figures up but it dosen't sound to far out of line.

c

Naval gang-bang is a lost art, but I'm glad to see that there are some artisans left... Ah, the old steel shampoo. Long may it reign.

Marine6, every MEU(SOC) deploys aboard an Expeditionary Strike Group (ESG), which includes 3 "shooters" mounting 5"/54 guns. It may not beat having an Iowa-class on call, but the Marine Corps hasn't given up on NSFS. However, given our rather compressed training cycle due to Iraq commitments, ANGLICO has decided to conform to the realities of the situation and focus on bringing the heat from above, not from the sea.

My main issue with NSFS, as it is with ASW and MIW, is that it is being allowed to atrophy. Yes, we do have a capability, but will it be the right one down the road? Iraq and Afghanistan don't require surface fires: Slab is 100% correct in that their main focus is CAS. However, we still need to be ready. Anyone who envisions conflict on Taiwan, the PI, or Malaysia should want something larger than a 5"-54. And we should have it, maybe not out there every day conducting MSO, but certainly in the reserve fleet. Oops, what reserve fleet?
Everything I read on the 8" MCLWG made it seem like another great weapon we will never see.

To clarify, I am for anything that makes a big boom, whether it is dropped from an aircraft or shot from a ship. I'd love to have an Iowa-class on call again, but the current push is for smaller, more precise booms. Wrong or right, I don't see us moving back towards bigger shipboard lead slingers anytime soon.

ah but gang those things wern't lead.

15# for the rifeling ring.
~300# for the bursting charge.
~10# for the setback/contact fuse.
~2475# cast steel for the case.

or
~15# for the rifeling ring.
~1300# for the bursting charge
~10# for the setback/contact fuse.
~975# cast steel for the case.

for those interested there is a 16" barrel and two armor piercing projectiles about 100 yards northwest of the ferry building at San Pedro ca. right by the street.

c

C, point well taken. However, as long as they go boom when they hit the deck (or 7m above the deck for CVT), they could be made of paper mache for all I care.

Although I guess that would significantly reduce the fragmentation. Ah, well, you see where I'm going with that, at least.

aye, aye, sir.

c