Military Police?

No active forces for civilian enforcement duties. The reserves and guard can do the job, and the guard should be kept under state control.

The active forces duty is to kill people and break things -- something we do not need within the U.S. during disasters.

1878 Posse Comitatus Act was for a purpose, which is still valid today, to limit the use of the military in civilian law enforcement.

As a retired regular Air Force officer I am against using the military where civilian authority should be used.

I have to agree with JimPv, but it sure would be nice to know that our civilian authority could react in these kind of situations with the same deliberate, professional and caring ability that our military does. It's like the old USMC saying, "no one needs God or the Marines, until they really need God and the Marines!"

You are missing the point. After the San Francisco earthquake, the Navy pulled in and started helping, primarily with hot food and trained medical staff. This is exactly what the military should have done after Katrina. The Navy did not pull into New Orleans, because incompetence sent them crusing up and down the coast.

Yes, the Marines are trained to kill people, they also know how to fix a damm good meal in the field. I have spent time with Marines, I have also lived in the aftermath of a natural disaster. Sweeping up broken glass, pulling old people out of nursing homes, fixing hot meals and setting up shower tents are not prohibited by posse comititus, they are also important, far more important than law enforcement.

"The Navy did not pull into New Orleans, because incompetence sent them crusing up and down the coast."

I'm not sure that's accurate, can someone verify? I thought the Navy steamed in there ASAP....USS Comfort and one of our LHDs if I recall.

Considering the use of no knock raids and paramilitary police forces, SWAT, it makes me queasy to picture even the most patriotic private standing on my street corner, even in a disaster.

It doesn't make me feel good to think that my failing to prepare with 3 days foodstuffs for a storm that was spotted a week earlier is grounds to begin the mobilization of the military.

I don't fear pvt anyone today. But I do fear his successors. Today's Army is trained to look at foreign countries as the place where things happen, in years to come if they get comfortable with emergency roles, they'll begin training for the next contingency, emergency policing, and after that becomes the norm...

We've seen over the years what happens when armies are allowed to move around countries to "do the right thing".

Seeing how the federal government has already moved to begin the supression of public speech though campaign finance, they've turned back the right to bear arms, the right to know a warrant is being served is no longer even reliable. Do we really want the best trained fighting force on Earth pointed at us?

With the horrid public schools today forgetting to instill in students the reasons our founders feared a standing army, much less civic duties and freedom, I don't want to rely on the next generations upbringing and education to keep them from mobilizing on our own cities.

It's a mixture made for bad things and oppression. I know it's conspiracy theory and slippery slope crap piled into one, but it's something I really do worry about happening downt he road.

As someone who is a professional police officer and a citizen-soldier who served in Iraq with the 101st Airborne, I can tell you that America's active component are the BEST DAMNED soldiers around... and are LOUSY policemen. The Army does a very poor job in training soldiers to perform in a civilian law-enforcement environment and does not equip them to do so.

Soldiers were made to memorize escalation of force techniques as if they were a step-ladder instead of being taught the "use-of-force continuum" as cops are taught. They are not given the hundreds upon hundreds of different scenarios they may encounter on the street in order to best prepare them to deal with any use-of-force scenario as cops are. These also aren't regularly rehearsed and discussed as they are in law enforcement circles.

In Iraq, we were not permitted to deploy OC spray, as it is considered a "chemical weapon" by the wonder-kids at JAG. Even though I was probably as qualified, if not more so, than any MP, I was told to put mine away. Same goes with the ASP baton. No training, no can use. CS grenades and rounds... no go. Non-lethal 40mm (rubber pellets and "nerf" rounds) was barely a "go" but were only tolerated in the most extreme circumstances (where I personally would probably revert to lethal force).

The Army is restricted by an antiquated document (the Geneva Convention) in which soldiers are not permitted to utilize the more lethal expansive rounds that American law-enforcement can on American citizens (I carry Speer Gold-dot Law-enforcement rounds... very nasty stuff).

I once heard of a story from the Marine experience during the LA riots in which Marines who were supporting a group of policemen serving a warrant on someone were told to "cover us". They proceeded to lay down suppressive fire on the suspect's house until told to stop. As hilarious is it was, fortunately nobody was hurt and the suspect was succesfully apprehended.

If any uniformed servicemen have to patrol my streets, please let it be reservists and national guardsmen, a good portion of whom are cops and know what they're doing in this situation.

Even if we should deploy AC units to domestic disaster areas, we really can't.

Posse Comitatus prevents it. That being said, active duty units CAN be used in true emergency situations ot prevent imminent loss of life or destruction of property.

I don't have it in front of me, but I've been working on the legal annex to our post's plan for a natural disaster and the legal authorities therein.

Short answer: AC units can assist, on occassion.

I think most people misunderstand the Posse Comitatus Act. The millitary was initially considered part of the Militia and it required Congress to employ them in domestic law enforcement situations.

In 1807 after the Burr controversy, Congress passed a law making the Army part of the Posse Comitatus (the people at large who constituted the constabulary who could be called on to help inforce laws) as well as a part of the Militia.

The Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 gave Federal Marshalls the power to call on the Posse Comitatus. In 1854, The Atty. Gen. issued a ruling that the Army was part of the P.C. After the civil war, the Republicans used the army to protect polling places and this pissed the Democrats off, leading to the passage of the Posse Comitatus Act. As part of the end of Reconstruction and the beginning of Jim Crowe, it is not our proudest moment, so it is a suprise that so many revere it so. However it was welcomed by the millitary as it kept them out of the uncomfortable situations of being out of their chain of command.

The P.C.A. prevented lesser authorities than the President from deputising the millitary for civilian law enforcement roles except when explicitly allowed by laws passed by Congress. It does not limit or restrict the power of the President at all. Any use of the millitary, including disaster relief, when ordered by the President is not a violation of the P.C.A.

Mike

I think that the Guard and Reserve units should remain our primary forces to deal with disaster relief. But I also believe that deploying certain active duty units such as engineers, logistics experts, transports, etc. should be considered. After the responses to Katrina, Pakistan, and the Tsunami, our logistical forces have it down to a science, but every oppurtunity becomes a learning experience to sharpen those troops skills. As for the policing and security aspect, that should be left in the hands of Reserve, Guard and local enforcement personnel. The chance of needing an active duty infantry battalion in a disaster zone is slim. And remember you have to feed those extra soldiers as well. Throwing more soldiers at the problem for political/media reasons could possibly lead to complicating logistics even further.

I dont think the problem is whether or not they should have policing duties (IMO they shouldn't) I think the problem is that theyre expected to have the policing powers by the puublic and the media that's on the scene.

Even if the active duty military is in a disater area cooking meals and doing other disaster relief functions, they're expected to be able to take part in actively restoring order.

Otherwise we'll have headlines that read: "US Army Complicit in Mass Looting!" Which, if I remember correctly, is exactly what happened in the immediate days after Katrina.

Kevin

Use the Guard, yes, and the more the merrier. That's one of the reasons they exist. Use the active military only very sparingly and preferably in support roles. As Joel pointed out above soldiers make awful policemen, because the soldier's primary weapon is his rifle, whereas the cop's primary weapon is moral authority stemming from his status as a member of the community. The Guard has the right elements of both.

Kevin, that is a good point about the media... and, as a PSYOP-er, I should have thought of that. The presence of AC forces set an expectation in the minds of generally ignorant civilians about what their role should be... and, when that expectation is not met (for whatever reason), it leads to bad press coverage.

Nice point.

Mike wrote:

The P.C.A. prevented lesser authorities than the President from deputising the millitary for civilian law enforcement roles except when explicitly allowed by laws passed by Congress. It does not limit or restrict the power of the President at all. Any use of the millitary, including disaster relief, when ordered by the President is not a violation of the P.C.A.

That's not entirely true. PCA, by its language, wasn't limited to "lesser authorities."

PCA makes it a crime for any person to use the Army or AF as civilian law enforcement unless authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress.

POTUS has authority to do so in cases of rebellion or insurrection, chem/bio terrorism, and some other instances not relevant here. But he does not have carte blanche. DOD personnel can offer logistical support under the Stafford Act (42 USC 5121 et seq), but that does not include civ. law enforcement.

Accordingly to say that "Any use of the millitary, including disaster relief, when ordered by the President is not a violation of the P.C.A." is incorrect. It may violate the PCA.

Someone might be able to correct me, but I don't think that the USMC, (nor the USN, but I am a little less clear on them) comes under the jurisdiction of the PCA. I remember having tp sign off on Memorandums of Understanding while serving on active duty in the USMC, but assigned to work on task forces with the DEA/Border Patrol, etc. Maybe one of the military lawyers can clear this point up for me. Although I love the USMC, I would not want to see them patrolling streets after a natural disaster.

As my life is spent in ARs, I cannot speak knowingly on how the Navy deals with PCA (as far as I know, the USMC would fall under whatever strictures the Navy has)

That, and I'm too lazy to look right now.

I think it's a terrible idea to use active duty troops for law enforcement duties. They are not trained or equipped to peform those duties and using them that way will weaken their ability to perform their primary mission as well as result in lousy law enforcement. I'm not convinced that using NG or Reserve troops that are not MP trained is much better.

Humanitarian duties are different and the manpower and other resources that the military can bring to disaster situations can be very helpful. This duty should primarily fall to NG and Reserve troops, but certainly bringing a hospital ship or amphibious assault hips can save many lives.

"Iwo Jima has literally become the headquarters, the "center of the universe" for all Federal recovery efforts, DoD as well as civilian, for Hurricane Katrina. It is on this ship that the myriad efforts have all come together."

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,NI_0905_Iwo-P1,00.html
has email sent by the captain of the Iwo Jima. If you haven't read it, it's worth the read.

Not all those navy ships were cruising up and down the coast.

Army Lawyer--
With respect, you seem to be alluding to the powers of Congress under Article I Section 8 "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions'" (Federalizing the Organized Militia or drafting the unorganized Militia). This discusses the Congress not the President, and this is with reguard to the Militia not the Posse Comitatus. Even so, it does not say exectute the laws of the union only when suppressing Insurrections . . .

The president's power comes from Article II, law enforcement as part of "executive powers" and command of the millitary as Commander in Chief. The standing army is already federalized. The presidential powers are covered "by congress or the constitution" wording in the PCA. Even if this were not the interpritation of the PCA, it would still not apply to the president because only a constititional amendment can remove presidential powers, a statute cannot.

This is the interpritation of the PCA that Professor Derek Reveron at the Navy War College teaches.

Mike:

I was actually referring to the insurrection statute. 10 USC 331. I'm aware that a statute cannot divest a branch of inherent authority, I'm disputing that the President has such inherent authority under Art II to use the Armed forces for domestic law enforcement (without reservation).

Re Reveron--he failed to make such an Art II argument in this NRO article re Katrina and seems to advocate there that PCA applies. (though I found the Owens piece from which you took your initial post)

Either way, Reveron's position as stated in the Owens piece only goes so far to est. that POTUS may use the armed forces in domestic affairs. That's not in dispute. What's in dispute is that he can do it at any time, whenever he wants.

Absent SOME express or implicit authorization from a co-equal Congress or an imminent emergency situation that could plausibly invoke a President's "war" powers, the proposition that the POTUS has unfettered authority to use the armed forces in domestic law enforcement in any scenario is shaky.

Army Lawyer-
Thanks for the clarification. Actually "carte blanche" or "unfettered" power is not my position, but consistent with Constitutional presidential powers. Article II is so short and vague that it is as much a question of history and tradition as to what they mean as it is one of law.

Mike

Army Lawyer-
Thanks for the clarification. Actually "carte blanche" or "unfettered" power is not my position, but consistent with Constitutional presidential powers. Article II is so short and vague that it is as much a question of history and tradition as to what they mean as it is one of law.

Mike

Sure looked like Navy Ships down by the Convention Center in N.O. when I was there is Spetember '05...

As for Operation Crescent Relief - I thought the only purpose for the 101st AB folks I saw was to have CNN and various print media photogs fllow them around taking endless shots of them and their nice red berets, heh heh.

I was originally looking for an article about the Marines providing "cover fire" and I came across this very interesting article about the military and the LA riots of 1992. It leads off with the Marine story.

http://www.militarymuseum.org/LARiots1.html

I was originally looking for an article about the Marines providing "cover fire" and I came across this very interesting article about the military and the LA riots of 1992. It leads off with the Marine story.

http://www.militarymuseum.org/LARiots1.html

very interesting comments

grif,

Regarding PCA to USMC - See 10 U.S.C. § 375, where Congress directed SecDef to promulgate regulations forbidding direct
participation “by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other
similar activity.”

SecDef did so in DoDD 5525.5. Therefore, the proscription has been extended by regulation
to the Navy and Marine Corps (DoDD 5525.5).

However, SecDef and SecNav may grant exceptions on a case-by-case basis
(DoDD 5525.5, Encl. 4, SECNAVINST 5820.7b, para. 9c.).

Another Freaking JAGO

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