Question of the Day

I don't think we've lost it; it's just asleep for the time being.

I just like to think that we have put on a thinking cap to go with that warrior spirit.

So what are you saying HP? Have we lost it?

I myself wouldn't go that far, but there are people in this country who are certainly degrading our ability to win wars.

There's a "warrior spirit" and then there is warmongering. The two are one in the same. America's history of a "warrior spirit" is nothing more than a history of bloodshed. Sheep.

Short answer, no. Hudna's work both ways.They need more missles, we needed to get the EU/UN out of the way. The party restarts next week.

the nation should be willing to defend itself in order to survive as a nation.
While we still have the warrior spirit on a grass-roots level, somehow we have the politicians and academia who lost this spirit entirely.

We have not lost it, but our political class has. Where once we had a Teddy Roosevelt, who actually killed men and animals, and boasted about his exploits, now we have a Jimmy Carter. Yeah, I know, he was a Naval officer, so were the Walkers.

No, but that spirit is so frowned upon during peacetime that it hibernates in the general populace, and must be prodded hard to be awakened. Some felt it after 9/11, some rolled over and went back to sleep. Some just don't understand and never will ( see Social Justice above).

The fact that we still have the best trained, best equipped all volunteer armed forces in the world tells me that we have not completely lost the warrior spirit. I say that while being firmly grounded in the reality that it would take a massive jolt to wake it up in more people. I am surrounded by the pampered masses who refuse to focus beyond their careers and 4000 square foot houses.

I would be inclined to think that America's "Warrior Spirit" is something much akin to a sword. For a large part of the time, when not in use, it is kept sheathed. However, when necessary, it is unsheathed and wielded terrible ferosity.

Should be: ...wielded with terrible ferosity

well all i can say is i been tryin to join the army for 5 months now and its bein delayed for a medical reason even after ive gotten all my med docs in and they said its okay they are still waitin.. sometimes i just dont think were at war anymore cuz if we were i would have been gone atleast by the first month.. so much for volunteering

-cheers

Brad Kasal? Brian Chontosh? Paul Smith? Leigh Ann Hester? Any of those names sound familiar? Our warrior spirit is alive and well in some folks, dozing in others.

History has always had many merchants and few warriors. Warriors were always detested-until they were needed.

The more things change...

Having just attended the 82nd. Airborne meeting in Orlando, I will attest to the warrior spirit being very alive in this sector of the populace. I also live in a small rural town which has sent 18 young warriors off to battle, one of which lies wounded in Walter. Whoops, thats not much of a cross section is it?

I think certain Americans do. I think America as a country does not.

For what it's worth, last saturday I bit the bullet, went into a gun shop, and bought a 20 gauge pump action shot gun. The weapon of choice of soft lifetime civilians, I gather. Like me.
The guy behind the counter was an ex-cop, and we didn't waste any time pretending that I had any interest in duck hunting and the like. I'm waiting for plastic make-pretend shells ('snap caps'?) to come in, so I can practice loading and unloading. Meanwhile I can assemble the gun eyes shut. Next step: find a deserted place or a tolerant range where I can practice at my own pace.
This must sound pretty pathetic to you pros, but people like me are catching on. The ex-cop said they're getting a lot of people like me.

On the topic of purchasing guns, have any of you heard good or bad reports from owners of the Baretta CX4 storm? I saw one the other day and thought it would be a good home defense and recreational shooting gun.

I don't think America has lost its warrior spirit, but it looks to me to be in fairly serious hibernation at the moment. That's actually a good thing many times, given the power America wields. An America with the warrior spirit of imperial Japan would be a rather horrifying prospect. Unfortunately, right now it probably means there's a mushroom cloud lurking just under the horizon --- and then things will get *really* exciting ... :-(

I think it's in deep hibernation.

Also, I'll throw this on the fire and see if it ignites: One of many sociological reasons for a perceived lack of warrior spirit: fewer children born than in previous generations. Consider: in earlier generations, children were "necessary" to work the fields, help the family.,etc. And, we had a higher infant mortality rate, a lower abortion rate, and surely other factors. Consequently, in earlier times, a loss of a child was not quite the emotional devasting event it is today.
This is NOT to say parents did not love their children as much as they do today; but death of children was a bit more common (no less tragic, but it occured more often). Thus, when PVT A was killed in battle in Normandy or the Argonne Forest, or Vicksburg, Mom had several other children to assauge the grief. Today, when PVT B is killed in Fallujah, Mom very well may have no other children, so the impact of the grief is felt more acutely.

Just a thought.

Dang - hit the send button too soon-

To continue - so, more Moms today are "anti-combat" because they don't want to lose their only child to war.

And before you criticize, I offer this as only one possible factor, not the leading cause, or even one of the top ten.

Stephen R.--who is degrading our ability to win wars?

And, what I meant was that the quick action in Afghanistan demonstrated our instinctual warrior spirit. Anyone who thought that wasn't necessary is an idiot.

However, Iraq is a different story. The populace had time to think about that one. There were no smoldering piles of rubble leading directly to the leader of that country. Yes, people thought, Saddam Hussein and sons are bad, evil even, but what have they done to my country? The picture painted wasn't as clear as the one created for Afghanistan. People thought about getting involved in Iraq, and many did not agree with it. That is why the warrior spirit appears to be gone in half the populace.

JaxSolo--I have three kids. If I lost even one of them I would be devastated. I will be the first to admit that having children has made me risk-adverse.

Your argument does sound like a plausible factor.

One response might be: Has America, collectively, ever actually HAD a "warrior spirit?"

Even our most "unified" wars were far from that. Each conflict in our history had a rather sizeable segment of the population that was against it. Sometimes those segments had more influence than others (Vietnam vs WWII), but I don't think you can point to any time in our history when we were so unified in a particular goal that America, as a collective entity, had a "warrior spirit."

Maybe more accurate to say that segments of the population have the warrior spirit and at varying times, are able to keep the other groups in check in terms of making policy.

Is that a distinction without a difference? Maybe. But it seems to me that most of praise for past endeavors is based on the fact that those previous endeavors were well ... successful. Which is a good bit of ex post facto reasoning which may be warranted (may not be too).

So has America lost it? Not sure if America, collectively, ever had it.

Just a thought.

Lost it? Or having it derailed?
First; the older generation have not lost it, we just have no voice in D.C., the media, or anywhere else. We are called the 'uneducated rednecks' even though I am an American that is black. And who likes to be called 'uneducated', therefore, people try to contain their warrior spirit to come off to be an intellectual.
That's all crap. There is nothing 'redneckish' in wanting to protect your love ones nor is it a sign of being stupid.
Many, if you are like me, have children. This is were the liberal agenda is beating our asses. They get to our children in the schools and through their influence are teaching our kids that standing up for yourself and being proud of your country and who you are is barbaric and a sign of the non-intellectual.
That's crap too, but kids are impressionable.
More important, take an active role in your child's education, trust me...you will be amazed at what you find. As a black male I am always butting heads with some moronic liberal teacher that hates this country and you should see the look on his face when he discovers this black male is a Conservative Republican. He is stunned that his liberal bullcrap won't wash with me.
Anyway, apologies for the length, but please make sure your children understand why George Washington was the best President and Lincoln a close second...

@ArmyLawyer...

Hmm...sounds like your knit-picking. Are you looking for a 100 percentile of the population to justify that America has/had a 'warrior=spirit'?

Surely, by your analysis, not a single country ever had a 'warrior-spirit' there are always dissenters throughout history, rather for good or ill.
I think I understand what you're fundamentally trying to say, but, by what scale would we then measure our elan if you are not looking for totality of the nation's population? 90%, 80%, or ...?

m in baghdad...any questions

recently a suicide car-bomber blew up a market south of here killing 45+ with the bomb in his mini-van. on the way, he picked up 11 Iraqi passengers. sound familiar. the sheep are those who believe that a cease-fire in lebanon has a snow-balls chance in hell or that "bringing the troops home" will save innocent lives here. they are very dangerous sheep because they standby while the world burns. i refuse to do that.

Igout -

Regarding your comment on the recent gun purchase, and the subject matter of this thread, I believe a certain population in America recognizes the reality of the world in which we now live. The notion of a warrior spirit is alive and well with them (but I agree with several comments here that most of the Country is asleep). I am sending my oldest off to VMI this weekend - he get's it. And so do many of his friends. There is hope.

In the meantime, I also went out and purchased a Remington 870 Express 12 guage for the very same reason. I will practice, I will learn, and I will protect my family.

S Willis:

I did entertain the notion that it might be a distinction without a difference. But if we're to speak of something a broad as what "America" writ large, has or does not have, I'm looking for 75%--however that would be quantified.

That being said, the question itself might be inaccurate. If we start saying that the warrior-spirit hasn't been lost, or is in hibernation, or still there among the older generations, etc etc--we're just saying that some portions of the population have it while others do not.

We can then say "America" has that spirit when those segments with it can keep the others from mucking everything up...

The spirit is there, the political willingness to use it is there, for the most part, but what is missing is a total understanding of what placing warriors into battle means.

It means people die. Oddly we as a nation seem more outraged over non-American deaths then when our own troopers go down.

Of course we have a warrior spirit. We are not that far out of the cave. The problem is the warriors we THOUGHT we elected turn out to be craven, well at least Bush and Rice. I still think Cheney and Rummy are true to the calling that put them in office. Our leaders are not in touch with the people. Well, the ones that REALLY count. Did your read Sen. Santoroum's speech the other day? (Link below) Have you been listening to Newt Gingrich latelly? Some pols get it. It remains to be seen whether pols that exhibit the spirit will catch on. Newt is a great communicator. Everything that Bush is not in that category. He is saying it right and I believe his words will kindle a fire in the heart of America, a fire that has been laid by our foes' repeated threats and agression, a fire that once ignited will burn across the planet and vanquish our enemy once and for all. The destiny of the world is at stake more than in ANY previous confrontation with evil. Israel's defeat emboldens the enemy, he pulls in that "rope" and hopefully won't see the noose on the end, our end, until it is around his neck.

Speech link: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1670233/posts

The warrior spirit is alive and well in every one of my 42 Civil Air Patrol Cadets, girls and boys ages 12 to 18. Not all of them will serve in the military, but all of them have been taught the history (real history, rather than "school" history) of the present conflicts in the Middle East.

They are all patriots by choice, believers in truth, justice and America, respectful of their elders, and America's miltary. Granted, we're in Missouri, so we have a head start but still, if you teach a few kids, they will in turn teach a few more, and the warrior spirit will be kept alive.

As for the adults I know, not so sure they have the warrior spirit, but we try to get them to pay attention!

A very emphatic "No." From the kids thinking of enlisting to a few years, to the community colleges lauding their veterans... and that's why we're deep in it.

Our enemies see only 60 Minutes, CNN reports, and what's on MTV. Ahmadinejad desperately needs a Yamamoto.

Not only do we have a warrior spirit, we also have something most other nations don't... a "luxury of response."
If you're bored, I wrote on this just as the Israeli-Hezbollah furball was starting.

http://happycrow.wordpress.com/2006/07/12/casus-belli-and-the-israeli-hizballah-war/

As igout and Gvirginia indicate, as well as the incidence of CCW permits now allowed and issued all over the country, I think the warrior spirit is alive and burning. There are sheep, sheep dogs and wolves (per Col. Grossman). The number of sheep dogs is rising. I think the (civilian) warrior spirit is largely in the over 40 crowd but those are the people who by their actions influence the younger people around them. By all means, buy a firearm, take lessons, join a shooting sport, encourage someone else to do it too. Be a good example to emulate. You will influence people that you don't even know just by your presence. Nay sayers get what they want and so do the positive 'can do' people. Refuse to be a victim.

Much has been said about the relative small size of our armed forces when compared to population. Like it or not our warriors are members of an elite.

America has become more skeptical as information has become more available. Can you imagine the reaction today to government "propaganda" in the vein of WWII?

The warrior spirit still exists among us, those who embody it are the keepers of the flame. Eventually we will get serious about war, accept the consequences and the flame will spread; or we will fall and the flame will die, as will the world we have come to know.

The warrior spirit is alive. You can clearly see it in the armed services, based on the reenlistment rates alone. However, it is sadly lacking in the political class.

My pet theory (just a theory, mind you) is that the main problem is the Baby Boomer Generation. This generation is still badly fragmented from the Vietnam era, and the players are now not just a part, but are the "establishment." And the little fued between the sides goes on, even though the situation and circumstances have clearly changed.

Pearl Harbor galvanized the "Greatest Generation" to action and the call to duty went on until the task was finished. 9-11 seems to have only "clicked" with the young (looking at the "why's" of enlistment and reenlistment). But those in the political classes seem to be more intent on using it to their advantage, rather than placing the greater good to the forefront of their agenda. It dilutes the urgency and the sense of purpose.

My apologies, but I seem to have gotten onto my soapbox and gotten a bit verbose.

In closing, I wonder what my generation, the Xer's, will be doing twenty to thirty years from now to the United States...

I will say yes. As evidence, I present my two daughters.

The oldest just returned from her Midshipman cruise on a Perry Class frigate and will be commissioned as an ensign next spring. She can hardly wait to be underway on a cruiser out of Mayport and earn her Surface Warfare Badge.

My youngest will be joining the Army after she graduates next spring to become a combat medic.

A minister asked me recently why they had made these choices. Well, first, I raised them to make their own choices since they were little - starting small with things like what they wanted me to pack for their preschool lunch (if they didn't like it a few hours later they knew who was responsible) and built their range of choices and the size from there.

Both of their Grandfathers were in WWII. One lost his twin brother in the Huertgen and almost lost his own life from wounds in the Ardennes in January of 1945. They both had the opportunity, after each winning a school essay contest, to place a wreath on the Tomb of the Unknown during their 8th grade trips to Washington. They also both traced the name of my cousin from the black granite wall on the mall. They understand the sacrifices made by our predecessors and the price some pay to preserve our way of life.

They have an uncle who graduated from the Air Force Academy and just retired as a colonel. They see that he has a family and is a normal guy who happens to fly passenger jets today.

I offered them the opportunity to join my wife and myself in our shooting hobbies, Civil War skirmishing and Cowboy Action shooting (if they wished). They both accepted. They understand the basic functions of the tools they may need to use and also met MANY veterans who were always ready to help them learn and also share their experiences. They have many shooting "Uncles."

The oldest, who just turned 21, was given the choice of any self defense pistol she wanted and is the proud owner of a Colt Defender today. Her sister will get the same opportunity when she turns 21.

The oldest used her leadership skills to be her school's first Sophomore Drum Major in the band's history.The youngest has been doing Civil Air Patrol for years and is the #2 officer in her home squadron. They both are recognized as leaders and are willing to use that gift in our service.

I love them both and proud of them both. They may not be Xena, but they are my warrior princesses.

Billy Bob

I am a 71 year old veteran. I have sons and grandsons, all of whom I would willingly die for. I would also willingly send them off to fight for our country, even knowing I would never see them again. I would do so with love and respect. If you do not understand this instantly and with no confusion and if you could not do the same with no hesitation or qualification you do not know what a man is.

Art Hippler

The answer is yes and no. A seeming majority of the country has lost the will to do what is necessary for survival. This country is far too weak to face significant casualties or the slaughter that will inevitably follow current events. The world is teetering on the brink of all out war, with everything going on with China, Iran, North Korea, Syria, even the Russians. People whine about surveillance programs and yet do not realize what kind of restrictions were placed on liberties during WWII. If you even spoke out against the war or discouraged soldiers from reporting for duty, you would be thrown in jail indefinitely.

“A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country, by scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us: thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means.”---Thomas Jefferson

ArmyLawyer-

Thanks for the clarification. Your last sentence is right on.

When you look at most of these posts, look how many either say or hint at how our political leaders are going in a different direction than what we are demanding. Maybe we are not demanding enough?
I agree with Mr. Hinds, I think Vice President Cheney and SecDef Rumsfeld could do a better job leading right now then Pres. Bush and that awful State Dept. SecDef Rumsfeld given free reign would have flipped Iraq by now, but he has so many nagging people micromanaging what he is doing he is almost doom to fail. What they call political scapegoat...I don't believe he is allowed to do what he REALLY would like to do to that country, you might need to read more on D.Rumsfeld and get a better perspective of just who he is.

Great to see all the responses involving our children. Congrats to the VMI's, CAPC's, and newly enlisted, GODSPEED.

By the way, where are all the Great Generals?
Not the W.Clark WestPointSneakyPoliticianTypes...

Shawn

The “warrior spirit” is as alive today as it was in 1860, 1898, 1917 and 1940. In all of those instances pre-war America was viewed as weak-willed. It’s the nature of a democracy that while at peace, the body is passive. And for all the deaths and sacrifice from soldiers and sailors in Iraq, we’re not “AT WAR” in the classical sense. We’re involved with what used to be politely called a foreign adventure, and those have never fired up American spirit. While you can debate the necessity of these adventures, (the Philippines insurrection, Nicaragua, the first Panama intervention and Vietnam) they were never popular because they do not involve an immediate threat to America. Americans want and will support a war, but it needs to be something your average American can get behind with an understandable end point and a recognizable objective. Yankees weren’t willing to die to free slaves, they died to preserve the Union. Doughboys didn’t die in 1919 to preserve the balance in Europe, they fought to stop Uboat attacks. And all of Roosevelt’s scheming wouldn’t have gotten Americans to sacrifice to liberate France and the Philippines if those hadn’t been a necessary step in defeating the Axis

Our current objectives (ending tyranny, spreading democracy) don’t mean jack to most Americans because those objectives aren’t real, they aren’t tangible. It doesn’t help that the people we are trying to help don’t seem to want our democracy. Americans will support a war where the objective is to sieze the capital of Whateverstan and defeat the armies of its dictator-for-life because they can tell what progress is being made. Its harder to judge and audit more nebulous goals like increasing freedom.

The wars we are fighting now are more like the Victorian conflicts for England. Important politically, but not an issue of immediate survival. So for the foreseeable future, today’s army will be the thin red line: deployed at the edge of “empire” fighting ugly “little” wars that aren’t immediately important. Up until Iran puts a nuke into Europe or a Red Sea battle group, or North Korea either fires missile into Hawaii/Alaska/California or kills tens of thousands of US citizens bombing Seoul/Tokyo. Then we’ll have another “good” war. The War on Terror will have to get a lot uglier before Americans will be willing to really get dirty, and that’s something we should all be grateful for because a democracy enraged will do horrific acts. It will feel guilty later, but it will do whatever it takes to win. Please see: Atlanta/March to the Sea, Richmond, Dresden/Tokyo firebombing

@Mike

Nice post; I think I agree with 99% of it.
However, you said:

Yankees weren’t willing to die to free slaves, they died to preserve the Union.

I think it naive of you to believe this.(Undoubtedly, you're saying the same...) With cynicism I can understand how you might come to believe this especially with a 21st Century context, but I think you do an injustice to the mettle of those men. Clearly, in the history, memoirs, and texts that I have read I find enough evidence to support that the men were well aware of both objectives. It is easy to just assume that emancipation was second to the preservation of the Union, I would probably agree. But this dismisses to easily the importance of ending slavery in the minds of the Yankees. Like our Fore-Fathers. Remember that those men well before the Civil War had tried to end slavery in the Articles of Confederation, but states like Georgia and South Carolina in the South impeded this and thus it was thought by most of those wise men of genius that slavery would die out and they left it at that. Of course they were wrong. Men of the Black Phalanx were led by white officers who admittingly understood the war was about the freedom of another race and they fought for just that. And there were many average citizens of the same notion, although it may not have been apropos to admit at the time. Anyway, not to bore you with a history lesson, I will say this; though you are probably not wrong to say Yanks fought for preserving the Union let us not assume that your statement is an example of logical positivism.

This is great! One question: Is there any way around the authentication issue? I have a portal which requires a login/password. Am I out of luck? --thanks

the opinion is very interesting but i still have one question. what is the main idea about it

A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger

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